Liz Canada 0:00

No pressure on answering this question, but have you listened to any of the episodes to get a sense of the vibe of the show? No stress.

Devon Chaffee 0:06

I have not.

Liz Canada 0:08

Okay, then you're gonna have no idea what is coming. That is gonna be great. I love that for me.

Devon Chaffee 0:14

Have I learned nothing from listening to Mark Marin? That is the question.

Liz Canada 0:18

Oh. Well, it's almost the same here on the pod. Almost exactly the same. WTF. It's basically the name. Yes, that is. That should be the hashtag WTFNH. You're listening to New Hampshire Has Issues, and I am your host from the future, Liz Canada. This episode is all about how New Hampshire still, still in the future, now, has not legalized marijuana. So many folks have requested this episode topic. And so, first of all, thank you if you're one of those people who's written in to ask. If you would like to support the show, please share this episode. Or, you know, share any of the episodes, frankly. But because this is such a popular topic, this is a good one to share with others who might have that same question. Why the heck? Has it New Hampshire? Legalized marijuana. Another way to support the show is to become a monthly supporter. Patreon.com slash nh has issues. I will have a special gift out to the folks who are my original Patreons. That's going to be happening this winter, so if you sign up now, you will be in for a treat. Thank you for listening, and I will pass it back over to me. So, Devin, I am so glad that you are here. This is the number one topic that people want to know about, which is interesting as democracy crumbles around us. But like this is the topic. But before we get into it, at the beginning of every episode, I ask my guest to do a tagline for the episode. So the tagline is in the form of Welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask.

Devon Chaffee 2:15

Why is New Hampshire still jailing people for marijuana? Oh, okay. That's a great question to ask. And I think all these people that are asking you, you know, to cover this issue or are asking because they have the same question, right?

Liz Canada 2:31

Yeah. My tagline, welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask, how can we be the live free or die state and not have legalized marijuana?

Devon Chaffee 2:44

I mean, the state of New Hampshire, we don't require adults to wear helmets on motorcycles. Right. We don't require adults to wear seatbelts and cars. Sure. But for some reason we continue to prohibit the recreational use of marijuana. Like how are we how are we making sense of this?

Liz Canada 3:01

And they say just go across the border. Just go to another state. It makes no sense. All right. Well, I am your host, Liz Canada, and joining me today is the executive director of the ACLU New Hampshire, Devin Chafee. Devin, you're here talking to me about marijuana legalization.

Devon Chaffee 3:21

Thank you for being here. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Liz. I I love nothing more than to have a conversation with you. So this is great. This is gonna be great.

Liz Canada 3:29

So I like to start every episode with a simple question. Why hasn't New Hampshire, the live free or die state with the no seat belts and the no helmets, why has New Hampshire not legalized marijuana?

Devon Chaffee 3:43

So I want to start by saying that it's not because there isn't the popular support, right? There is clearly widespread support in New Hampshire for the legalization of marijuana. I think the most recent polling puts it at 74% of granite staters support legalization of marijuana. So it is popular, right?

Liz Canada 4:05

That's a very high percentage. 74%?

Devon Chaffee 4:08

Yeah. Again, like how do we find ourselves in this situation? And I think it is a mix of you have politicians, elected officials who are somewhat removed from the reality of some of their constituents and what the real reality is on the ground in New Hampshire with regards to, I guess, what people are using marijuana in the state of New Hampshire, even though it's not a good one. Devin.

Liz Canada 4:32

Don't tell anyone that doesn't happen. No, of course not.

Devon Chaffee 4:34

The same officials are very afraid of backlash from the police. They know that if they support legalization, they're constantly getting phone calls from their police chiefs telling them not to support it. And they don't see the that they will have any political consequences for opposing it, right? So they are afraid of backlash from the police if they support legalization. They don't think there are going to be any political consequences if they oppose it, and they don't really see any political advantage to supporting it. And so we wind up in this sort of place where there just isn't the momentum to finally pass legalization. Now we have gotten so close in New Hampshire. And in 2014, we were actually the New Hampshire House was the first legislative chamber in the country to pass a legalization bill. Um, but we've never been able to get it across the finish line. We were first in the nation? We did it? The New Hampshire House was the first in the nation to pass a bill because you had had all of these. Normally it had to go to, you know, a ballot initiative up until that point. And over half of the 24 states that have passed legalization nationwide have done so by the people saying, we want this and we want it now. No, that's not an option here in New Hampshire. So that's another thing to remember that a lot of the states that have passed legalization have done so without the help of their legislators, right? They signed petitions and then they voted because that is what the people wanted. And unfortunately, because we don't have ballot initiatives here in New Hampshire, you know, that's not an option.

Liz Canada 6:07

I lived in Colorado when uh marijuana legalization happened. Like we legalized it through, like you said, the ballot initiative, I believe, voted for it in the November election. We can't do that here in New Hampshire. Why not? Like 74% of granite staters you're saying support this.

Devon Chaffee 6:27

Why can't we do that on our ballot? New Hampshire's constitution just doesn't have that as an option for New Hampshire voters in other states. They have, you can bring a whole host of different types of issues, you know, to the people. And that can create challenges as well, but it can also create really exciting opportunities, you know, in the reproductive rights space. We've seen when it goes to the people, people want the right to access abortion, right? And it's been a really important tool there. And it just isn't provided for in the New Hampshire Constitution. And in order to change that, it would take a 60% majority of in both the House and the Senate, and then a very large majority, you know, when it when it goes to the ballot. So changing the New Hampshire Constitution to allow for ballot initiatives would be quite an undertaking.

Liz Canada 7:12

So we have to go through our lawmakers. The only path is through our 424 friends and our governor friend. They're the ones who can do it. They're the only ones who can do it.

Devon Chaffee 7:23

Now, in 2024, both the House and the Senate passed bills to move forward with legalization. And the governor said he would sign up. Wait, wait, wait.

Liz Canada 7:34

2024? That was like five seconds ago. That just happened.

Devon Chaffee 7:39

Very fresh in my memory was but they couldn't agree on what type of legalization they wanted, right? One wanted one that was more along the lines of the liquor commission. That was the Senate proposal that the governor, Governor Sununu really supported and wanted to see. And then the, you know, many folks in the House wanted something that was more along the lines of an industry-led initiative that you might see in Massachusetts or in Maine and some of the other states that have legalized. And they they couldn't come to an agreement. So close. So close. So there was a contingent in the house that thought there was too much government oversight, and they and they also had had troubles with some of the criminal penalties. So there were issues. There were issues with that bill. We supported the bill. We think that that next step was really important. But there were issues like there were increased criminal penalties for smoking marijuana in public. We fought really hard to get those so that the first offense was not, you know, a class A misdemeanor, that you couldn't go to jail for smoking a marijuana, you know, for smoking a joint in public, which you can't, by the way, now if it's less than three-quarters of an ounce. So it would have actually been a more severe penalty than what we currently have. Um, so there were there were legitimate disputes over it, and also this broader concern over like what the legal the structure of legalization should look, should look like, who should be running it and who should benefit. There were folks who voted against it who clearly have support legalization. Yeah. They just decided that they didn't want to support this path to legalization. And I think they thought they had time. I think, you know, some thought that there was a good likelihood that we would have a governor who would support legalization and that they would get what they wanted, right? You know, in 2025. And that clearly is not what happened. Um it's just the perfect is the enemy of the good sort of situation. I think it is the perfect is the enemy of the good, Liz. And I think that's a great insight into one of the main things that you know we we have struggled with as we we go through this process. Um, there I think it's unlike there is no perfect way to legalize marijuana. It's complicated, right? It's incredibly complicated. Any of the regimes that have been set up, whether it's Colorado or Maine or California or Massachusetts, like they they all have their own style. There are many different decision points that you have to make. And to me, it is so clear that we we within certain boundaries, we just need to get over the hump and then figure, we will figure the details out as we roll out. And you've seen every every state has had updates and tweaks, and there will be subsequent legislation. And to not, as you said, exactly not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And I think that is definitely something that we have seen. Um, and that has been a a huge barrier to getting this legislation through.

Liz Canada 10:46

But it's happens so often with policies of like, well, it's not exactly what I wanted.

Devon Chaffee 10:53

And to me, as you know, somebody who has the honor of being able to do this advocacy from a mission perspective, I feel like a real responsibility to the people who entrust us with the resources, our donors, our supporters, to have an impact. And you can't have an impact if you are always holding out for the perfect solution. And so you have to be willing to make smart compromises. You don't roll over, but you have to be willing to make smart compromises in order to have an impact on people's lives. And quite frankly, that is why, right, people support organizations like the ACLU. They don't just support us because we say good things, they they support us because they think we're gonna make a difference. And so, you know, when I, you know, we we we didn't think that that bill that was proposed by the Senate in 2024 was perfect. I was late into the night in the Senate, Liz. I was offering, I was helping draft amendments. Yeah, you know, I was responding to bad amendments that were being made. We were fighting every single step of the way to make that bill as good as we could make it.

Liz Canada 12:04

Yeah.

Devon Chaffee 12:04

And in the end, we have to be willing to compromise if we're actually gonna get to that next level, if we're actually gonna have an impact.

Liz Canada 12:12

If we were that close in 2024, does that mean like we're even closer now? Like, what are these next steps to getting it over the finish line? Like, has that agreement happened? What's what's the status after 2024?

Devon Chaffee 12:29

The status since 2024 is that our current governor, Governor Ayot, has said very clearly, and she's she made this very clear on the campaign trail that she opposes marijuana legalization. And so, in order to overcome that opposition, it would be extremely difficult. Um, and there's no indication that the Republicans in leadership, especially in leadership of the Senate in the Senate, have any interest in requiring the governor to veto a legalization bill. So I think that it's it's a much harder and much more uphill battle now than it was where in 2024, where Sununu made clear that he would have been open to a certain form of legalization in the state, unfortunately.

Liz Canada 13:15

So even harder now, current governor has said very clearly, I do not support this. I do not want to legalize marijuana in the state.

Devon Chaffee 13:24

She's a former criminal prosecutor, you know, she comes from a law enforcement background. It's not shocking, but it is unfortunate.

Liz Canada 13:31

What's the deal with the law enforcement in marijuana? Is it like what like what why do they care so much, I guess? Like what is the issue there?

Devon Chaffee 13:41

Well, I think it's it is a question of taking away their authority, right? And and they use that authority in a number of ways. So it's not only is it this question of them wanting to be able to arrest folks on marijuana-related crime, but also they use marijuana as a reason, some might say a pretext to engage in certain searches of cars, uh, to, you know, if you smell marijuana, you know, you you might use that to justify searching a house or a car or even an individual's person. And so often, right, they use these types of marijuana-related offenses against folks, even if, you know, that that it's just a pretext for them wanting to be able to search or or detain them for other reasons. And there's a lot of like misinformation that is become a part of that discussion, right? There are all of these accusations made about, well, if you legalize, we're gonna see traffic accidents skyrocket, we're gonna see child use, you know, go through the roof, we're gonna see all of these other things that are gonna happen when the sky is gonna fall, right? Lots of chicken littles running around.

Liz Canada 14:48

We saw in those 24 states, like they've completely collapsed. It's just complete chaos there. Exactly.

Devon Chaffee 14:57

And it just is divorced from reality and it's divorced from any of the studies that have done. We now have quite a bit of information, right? Because as you said, Liz, we have 24 folks. I don't when was it that Colorado legalized when it was a good idea? A long time.

Liz Canada 15:08

I was still living there. So I moved away in 2014. So it was before that. That's a long time ago.

Devon Chaffee 15:14

A decade of data, and there have been a significant, you know, a significant amount of studies on the impacts, and we know that it doesn't lead to an increase in traffic fatalities. We know that it doesn't result in an increase in uh youth use. You know, there's all of these, there's there's very good data backing that is contrary to some of these assertions that are being made about the negative impact of legalization. Generally, when folks are making this argument, they ignore the fact that people are currently using marijuana in the state of New Hampshire. It's not as if we're starting from a place where nobody is using marijuana, and then all of a sudden we're gonna legalize and the, you know, all will have a huge part of the population. There's already a significant portion of the population that is using marijuana. They're just driving to Maine. They're just driving to Massachusetts or they're up in the North Country growing it in their backyard, right? And so the question isn't whether or not people should be using marijuana, it's whether or not we think that it should, you know, folks should potentially face jail time for it. Um, and certainly from like an that's you know, from the ACLU perspective, we think that's really unjust.

Liz Canada 16:22

Yeah, that was sort of my next question. Why does the ACLU care about this? This is something that I know that your organization has been working on. Why does this matter so much to your organization?

Devon Chaffee 16:34

We at the ACLU really care about this issue, primarily because of the way that it impacts real people's lives that get ensnared up in the criminal justice system because of a marijuana charge. Now, we were able to achieve decriminalization in New Hampshire. So, like up to three-quarters of an ounce, you know, you you don't you should not go to jail for that for a violation. You should just get a violation. But we still know that there's over a thousand arrests that are marijuana-related that are made in the state of New Hampshire every year, even with decriminalization. And so all, you know, these over a thousand people every single year are getting ensnared in the criminal justice system. They're having to go to court, they're potentially missing work. And then there are all of these collateral consequences of having that type of record. It makes it more difficult to get housing, it makes it more difficult to find employment, it makes it, you know, it can interfere with people's child custody situations. Like there are real serious consequences for having a marijuana-related offense. And the racial impact of these policies, they're so disproportionately applied to people of color, black and brown people in this state of New Hampshire, it's staggering, right? And so even though we know that they're the rates of use are similar, I want to be clear. The rates of use along racial lines are very similar across racial lines. But black people in New Hampshire are 4.8 times more likely to be arrested for a marijuana offense. And this is 2020 information than white people. 4.8 times more. Yes. So the impact that it has on this and on our state, especially, you know, obviously that's a small, small population in this state, right, is really significant. Um, and a huge part of why decriminalization and legalization has been such a priority for the ACLU, including the, you know, including our affiliate here in New Hampshire. And we also know, you know, we're not primarily motivated by this, but it's also like a huge waste of taxpayer money. Every time that somebody is arrested in the state of New Hampshire, our tax dollars go to paying a judge and a clerk and law enforcement officers and prosecutors. And this is all time that could be spent on real crime or violent crime or property crime that's actually having a negative impact on other people in the state of New Hampshire that is instead being used to go after these folks for marijuana offenses. And, you know, we uh did a study that was um in, I think it was it's a little a bit outdated, it was in 2010, but it showed that there was like over $6.5 million was spent annually on enforcing marijuana offenses throughout the state of New Hampshire. And as we all know in New Hampshire alone? 6.5 million? Yes. So we we you know and we don't have a huge source of revenue in this state. And so why are we using these limited resources? If we want to make our community safer, why are we using law enforcement towards, you know, to uh resources towards these you know marijuana crimes? Uh it just doesn't make sense, and it has a real impact on the people who are the target of these prosecutions. 6.5 million dollars a year. Okay. If you want to, Liz, if you want to go, do you want to go down the the financial implications route?

Liz Canada 20:09

I have a pencil, Devin, for this reason.

Devon Chaffee 20:12

Yes, I do. Then let's do this. Let's do this. And I, you know, it's clear, obviously, the you know, the ACLU, I am not a revenue expert, you know, and that's not the primary motivation of the ACLU, but it is a reality of this issue topic. Because the amount, it's not just that we're spending this amount on enforcing these laws, but the amount of revenue in taxes and fees that the state is giving up by not having legalized, right? Yes.

Liz Canada 20:41

And instead, people are saying politicians, elected officials are like, we're not going to legalize it here. You can just go to Maine and buy it there. Give them your money.

Devon Chaffee 20:51

Why are we doing this? Maine is making somewhere along the lines of $40 million annually, according to the Maine statistics, the government available data on this. I have talked, I have talked to New Hampshire legislators who voted against legalization in 2024, who once they realized what a significant deficit we were looking at and what the revenue numbers look like in New Hampshire, which was there's a severe decline, right? Yes. They regretted that decision because it could have made some of the really difficult financial decisions that are being made about the services, critical services that are being provided to grand estaters, could have been those hard decisions that are being made could have been avoided had we created a system where we were creating a revenue stream. And I'm speaking here, you know, I'm a I'm a New Englander. Most of my family's from Western Massachusetts, right? Real working class town in Western Massachusetts. Where did all of them go to buy their cigarettes and alcohol while I was growing up? Beer and cigarettes, you go up to the New Hampshire border, right? You go into that, you go to the outlets, you avoid the high taxes, the New Hampshire advantage. Like that was those were the trips my family made. And now instead, they're they're getting in their own town. They're like, why do I need, you know, my and my poor, my poor uncle who lives in New Hampshire is having to what drive down to Massachusetts? It just doesn't make sense. If you go down to the Rockingham Mall, is over the holidays. Where is the Rockingham Mall? It's on the border of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, down in this, the the southern tip of the state. You should visit it. It's a great mall.

Liz Canada 22:33

Devin, I literally live in Exeter. Is it near me or is it far away?

Devon Chaffee 22:36

It's maybe an hour south.

Liz Canada 22:38

I'm terrible at geography. This is also a big part of the show, is I don't know where anything is. I live in the county of Rockingham. I know that.

Devon Chaffee 22:47

I it might be closer. I'm I'm not great at geography either.

Liz Canada 22:51

I will I will I'll look on a map and I'll find Rockingham Mall. Okay, so if I go there, which is on the border.

Devon Chaffee 22:57

If you go there during the holidays, you will see that the lines of cars to the dispensary over the border in Massachusetts literally backs up into New Hampshire, right? So you have people in New Hampshire, many of whom, by the way, have New Hampshire license plates, who are waiting in line to make that legal purchase. And Massachusetts is gonna receive the taxes and fees associated with that purchase instead of New Hampshire. And and how does that make practical sense for our state?

Liz Canada 23:32

So writing down the math for myself, in New Hampshire, spent about $6.5 million in enforcement and like court fees, all those processes to like keep marijuana not legalized, like to enforce this policy that we have. And Maine, just a hop, skip, and a jump over the border, is bringing in, so we are spending money in New Hampshire, and Maine is bringing in $40 million.

Devon Chaffee 24:06

And they just voted to raise the tax on marijuana from 10 to 15%. So I can only imagine, and I think that goes into effect in January. So I can only imagine that that number is gonna increase.

Liz Canada 24:18

So to recap, we are spending money when it comes to our marijuana law of not having legalized marijuana, and Maine is receiving money. What the h, Devin? Why is this so complicated? This feels like just a slam dunk issue for pretty much any politician. Like 74% of people want this, and New Hampshire granite staters want this. We have a huge revenue problem in our state. Like I had Phil Sletton on for a two-episode feature to talk about the state budget and what's happening and how revenues have gone down, and intentionally so, lawmakers made that decision. So lawmakers make the decision to cut revenues and they make the decision to not pass this, which is another revenue stream. Why, Devin? Why? Why is this happening?

Devon Chaffee 25:11

I mean, I'm gonna answer your question with a question to a certain extent is why are there not more political consequences for these types of decisions? Why are we not making the connection between the revenue situation in our state and these decisions that are being made and people not being able to understand how that could potentially affect their daily lives with regards to services or funding, you know, education funding or other potential, you know, funding in the state. Under the models that were being considered, some of this revenue was supposed to go towards education funding in the state. Now, that was very politically advantageous because it would reduce property taxes, right? That was the idea. You know, why, especially even Republicans would support that is because there were, you know, even Republicans who are not huge supporters of our public education system would say, well, it will reduce property taxes because you have more, you know, state level funding for education. And yet, even, you know, with that direct connection with how it could affect the pocketbook of granite staters when it comes to what they're paying in their property taxes, there is no accountability for elected officials and their decisions in this realm.

Liz Canada 26:26

Why? I mean, people are literally asking me with my teeny tiny little podcast to cover this issue. So it is clearly on people's minds. And like I can see this, I don't know, image of all these things being intertwined, this like spider web of garbage that is going on with this topic, which is all these people support it, our revenues are down, our school funding issue is a huge problem, and property taxes are so high and it is crushing people. We're arresting a thousand people a year, they're having trouble finding housing. We have a housing crisis already. Like all of this is just piling up. Why aren't they held accountable? Why are the lawmakers who are consciously choosing to not pass this? Is it not cutting through? Do people just not see who do we have too many lawmakers? Is that part of the problem? Like, what is it, Devin? I know you just asked me, but I'm flipping it back to you. What's going on?

Devon Chaffee 27:18

I mean, it's a good question. I mean, I wouldn't say it's because we have too many lawmakers and that the New Hampshire House has consistently passed it, right? So that's where the 400 lawmakers are. You're right. And so it's, you know, those lawmakers that actually have a little bit more autonomy in their decision making seem to be able to get behind this effort. They know it's popular, they know what the impact would be, and maybe they might be have a little bit more autonomy from the police departments in whatever region they may be in, seem to be able to utilize more autonomy when voting on this issue. Whereas, you know, the House, it wasn't until we had a you know a governor who supported it that we could even get him. I mean, the Senate within the Senate, it wasn't until we had a governor who was like, you know, said publicly that he would support it that they really even started, you know, considering that maybe set Senate Republicans would get behind the issue. And I will say, when we have previously at the ACLU done campaigns on specific, you know, there were, you know, Democratic senators who we really targeted who had actually voted the wrong way. And we were able to move them on the issue over time, right? Even with their police chief supposing, we were able to get them to support it. But it took a lot of work and it's it's challeng- I don't know, it's a good question, and it's a question I think we ask ourselves is how can we all get more engaged, right? To let our legislators know that this isn't acceptable and and how do we work with folks so that they can make their opinions known to their elected officials. And I think that's something we're really trying to get at and to understand better. There's so many studies lists, right? Like there are lots of really good data out there about what we have seen in states that have legalized. And you can say it until you're blue in the face and it doesn't seem to permeate.

Liz Canada 29:13

What is the data? I think there's a part of it that we've talked about that is revenue into our state. If you're truly looking at the ledger at the end of the day, of pluses and minuses of money going in and money going out, legalizing marijuana would bring in money to the state, which would be helpful with all of our stuff. But what are the other benefits to legalizing marijuana in a state?

Devon Chaffee 29:38

Well, I think one of the most significant benefits is that you're not unjustly uh jailing people for marijuana related offenses when the vast majority of granite staters don't think we should be doing that, right? And that has like a real positive event benefits, especially for people of color in the state because of the disproportionate, um. Uh application of the law. And so you're talking about people not, I mean, the impact of somebody's life in going to jail, of having to go through the criminal justice system, of having a criminal record is so significant. And so the difference in their lives of not having that, you know, is really meaningful. And I, you know, I think back we had a client here at the ACLU, and this was before decriminalization, um, but he got arrested for a possession of a very small amount of marijuana, wound up in the Valley Street jail, and died from a fentanyl overdose while he was in jail. Now, question as to, and this was a man who was, you know, was on house at the time. Question as to whether or not he would have even had access to fentanyl if he hadn't been in the Valley Street jail, right? If if he had not had to go through that process, the impact may have been that he would still be alive today, right? And so it's I I think the impact can't be overstated. The human impact of legalization can't be overstated.

Liz Canada 31:07

I think about the musical that I love, Reef for Madness. It was uh it's based off of the 1930s film, propaganda film about Reaper Madness that was like meant to terrify people to be scared of marijuana.

Devon Chaffee 31:20

I have seen the clips from that.

Liz Canada 31:21

So it's a musical that's based on that movie. It's a comedy. They do a satire of that, which was all about scare tactics and fear and making this a terrifying thing and making groups of people really scary. It feels a bit like how do I say this? I guess I could say it any way I want to because I'm not beholden to anyone with my little podcast. But it feels like some of our lawmakers are helping to perpetuate some fear about people and about groups. You know, we're recording this on September 22nd. We are seeing in real time how people are being made into villains, made into scary folks, and our lawmakers are perpetuating that uh in the types of policies they're trying to pass. There's there's been a huge wave of anti-transgender hatred in our state and in our state house and how people are, speaking of transgender folks, there is a huge anti-immigrant push in our state as well. You're the ACLU. You work on all of these issues. How do you see this fear permeating in our state? Is it just in my mind, in my algorithm, am I seeing it on my own, or is this a real thing that is happening?

Devon Chaffee 32:34

I mean, I think it's definitely a real thing that is happening. I think, you know, we are seeing we are seeing the use of a punching down, right? A punching down on some of the most vulnerable communities in our state. Those very, you know, relatively small immigrant communities in the in the state of New Hampshire, very small uh populations of transgender youth, you know, very small and very one of the most vulnerable populations in our state, right? You know, you see these ridiculous mandatory minimums being proposed for essentially people who are simply addicted to fentanyl that have been proposed year after year in our state, these vulnerable populations where politicians are using fear as a political weapon and really punching down against these vulnerable populations in our state, really across the board. And they've made a political decision that that is how we're gonna win elections. And that was not the case. In my experience, I've lived in New Hampshire for 13 years now, and that was not my experience when I first moved to the state. You know, there wasn't this sense that we can use hate and fear as gonna main be our main political weapon. And we there was a sense that we can come together to to have protections for folks that are struggling with drug addiction. There was an understanding when I first across political parties that when it comes to drug addiction and drug use, that we we should be looking at alternatives, right? That it doesn't make sense to simply jail folks. There was an understanding that there was bipartisan support for protections for for folks regardless of gender identity. Um, when I first came to this state. And I would say in the last five years, there there has been a decision made that we are going to use fear and punching down on particular vulnerable communities in this state as as a political as a political maneuver, and that this is how folks think they're gonna win elections in the state. And I think it's really unfortunate.

Liz Canada 34:40

We have something, a policy that people care about that is wildly popular, that is not moved forward, that is sort of stuck now for the foreseeable future. And you have these other policies that harm small groups of people being just shoved down our throats, really. Like it's just this constant attack on the most marginalized communities in our state.

Devon Chaffee 35:03

And instead of trying to come together on policies that would be the best for our state and the best for the people, everyday people in our state and their lives, instead, we've decided now that the political advantageous thing to do is to distract, right? And to get people instead focused on these small and vulnerable populations that aren't really affecting their quality of life of the majority of the population, but to try to get them to believe that they are and to stoke that fear. Um, and so it's been a, I think, a really stark shift in recent years in the state.

Liz Canada 35:38

I would totally agree. And a shocking shift in our country as well, where it feels like I can't believe every day the different alerts that I get of what's changing at the national level and the attacks on our freedom? Liberty? Voice? What however we want to say it. Do we still have the right to free speech in our country? Yes or no?

Devon Chaffee 36:04

I think it is increasingly clear that the right to free speech is under a heinous attack in this country. I think we're seeing a rapid backsliding of democratic protections of free speech. I it's you look at what's what our national media outlets feel that they the way that they can and cannot present information. And you can you can feel, I think any normal reader can feel like this doesn't feel like what is actually happening, right, in our country. And yeah, I think in recent increasingly in recent months, that has been the feeling that we are losing the ability, we are losing the public square, if you will, not the literal square, but this public square of, you know, where we have conversations, the public media, um, you know, internet the conversations, broadcasting. Like I just think the clear and direct and brash attempts to terrify folks into silence is is very scary. So I'm hearing a strong maybe we still have it. We don't have any rights that we don't have to fight for every step of the way, right? So I think I think the answer is we we all better get fighting, right? These are not rights that we can take for granted. We've never been able to take them for granted. And surely in this climate, we cannot take them for granted. So if we want to claw our way back to having the ability to communicate with one another and to express ourselves and to express our opinions, we got to get on the front lines. And that's that's certainly, you know, true for us at the ACLU, but it's it's true for all of us.

Liz Canada 37:43

All right. Well, we'll fight for our first amendment rights and then maybe they'll move on to the second. We'll keep it up for each one as they just keep chipping away, I guess. We'll just we'll just work on that. How do you, the executive director of ACLU of New Hampshire, how do you keep sane in these times? How would you encourage a listener to deal with everything that's happening?

Devon Chaffee 38:03

Well, I find for me the best way to keep sane is by figuring out what it is I can do, right? And so I think I'm I'm actually really lucky uh getting to work at an organization like I work at with my teammates. I am so lucky to be part of such a talented and committed team of folks. And I feel like we all generally have a sense of what our role is and what our lane is. But there is a role for each and every one of us, right? Fighting for our rights, fighting to defend our democracy, that is everyone's job. And I think there is a role for us all to play. And you don't have to play all of the roles, but you can figure out what is the way in which you can plug in. Is it by attending my local school board and influencing policy at that level? Is it by, you know, organizing rallies in your hometown? Is it by making frequent and persistent calls to your state legislators because you know that they are targets? Or also thanking your state legislators who are doing the right thing. Right. Um, what are you know, maybe bringing them some flowers when they're because they don't get a lot of that, by the way, when they do do the right thing. What are the different ways? There are so many different ways to getting involved right now and to to bring folks together, right? You can you can have house parties, you can you can talk to people, you can connect with people, because I don't believe that this fear-mongering represents the opinion of the majority of granite staters. I don't believe that that's where we are as a state. When I go around to talk to people, even people who have political different political views than I do. And I must I have found myself a soccer mom. I've got 11-year-old twins, they're out there playing. Sometimes I can tell them apart. Sometimes it's a challenge. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah. But I, you know, I'm I'm out there, I'm I'm having conversations with folks. They they don't all have share my political beliefs. It's such, and it's such an opportunity to get to know folks, you know, did who are different from myself. Right. But I don't believe that they go home at night and think, I really want immigrants in Nashua to suffer, right? I don't think that they, I don't think that this is really what what they are concerned about or motivated most by. They want the best shot at being able to support their kids and to be able to support their families and to be prosperous in this state. And that's what they care about. And so, how, you know, the more that we we talk to folks and we mobilize folks, you know, I think that it's this is c clearly a fight worth fighting for in the state of New Hampshire. Um, because I don't think that this is where the majority of the state is.

Liz Canada 40:44

Yeah. The folks who are immigrants in our state are not right keeping our costs up, are not taking away anything from us. The transgender youth aren't raising our costs, but you know what would help with our state finances is legalizing marijuana to bring in some money to our state.

Devon Chaffee 41:02

It's been incredibly frustrating for reasons why I think you're like sort of literally and figuratively pulling your hair out as we've been having this conversation, Liz. Um I have less hair at the end of this episode, yeah, for sure. You know, it makes so much sense for the state of New Hampshire in particular that we would legalize marijuana, revenue reasons, justice reasons, public opinion reasons, just the general state ethos. Um, and so the frustration has just been, you know, it's been significant. And it was very, very challenging in 2024 when we came so close, so very, very close. And I will tell you, we were making phone calls, you know, we have 400 reps, you know, and and and uh, you know, make really trying to to get to to to get folks on board and come to an agreement. And it's been it's been an incredibly frustrating, frustrating ride. And you know, we'll we'll get it done. We'll get it done. But it's gonna, it's gonna be a long road, unfortunately, now, I think.

Liz Canada 42:07

Devin, thank you so much. This was really great. Thank you so much for talking with me.

Devon Chaffee 42:12

Oh, thank you so much, Liz, for having me on and thank you for doing this podcast. I think these are conversations that really need to happen in our state, and I'm so glad that you're helping to lead them.

Liz Canada 42:23

I'm happy to send them off into the world to the 74% of Granite Staters who support marijuana legalization and the others who are apparently are lawmakers.