Liz Canada 0:00

Our older kiddo is fourteen. So he's gonna be learning to drive soon. Ugh, which is terrifying. I think we might want to get him like a used electric car, because he's just gonna be driving around town. Seems like a thing to do. Sam Evans Brown says I can do it. I tell my mom this plan. She's like, no, you're gonna have to get something new in your garage. I was like, no, I don't. Sam said I don't have to do that. You're listening to New Hampshire Has Issues, and I'm your host, Liz Canada. In the spirit of this episode being about sustainability and the environment and getting outdoors, I'm gonna encourage all of us to get outdoors and head to Portsmouth on Friday, February 20th for a live event, which New Hampshire has issues, which is me, we'll be a part of. Uh we're doing a local podcasters night hosted by Granite Goodness. It is at 3S Artspace in Portsmouth Friday, February 20th. Tickets are available. I will have the link in the show notes, and I hope to see you there. If you would like to support the show on an ongoing basis, become a Patreon supporter at patreon.com slash nh has issues. If you have an idea for an episode, just like Andrew did when he emailed me about this very episode, you can send me an email at newhampshirehasissues at gmail.com. Thanks for listening. I love musicals, and your last name is Skylar, which makes me want to sing the lyrics from Hamilton. I'm assuming you get that a lot, that your name is like the Hamilton characters and real people.

Andrew Schuyler 1:34

Yes. Uh the Phillips Schuyler family from I believe uh upstate New York, no relation, but my kids get it more from school.

Liz Canada 1:42

Oh yeah, I bet.

Andrew Schuyler 1:43

No relation, but I do get it a lot. But I got Schuler, Schiller butchered all over as a kid.

Liz Canada 1:50

Well, uh, I would get, you know, my last name is Canada, which seems so easy for someone to pronounce, but inevitably people think that it's it looks too simple. So they're like, Kanada, canyada, Kennedy? And I'm like, you're so far away from where you should be. There's an office. As simple.

Andrew Schuyler 2:08

Yeah. There's a move, there's an episode in the office when uh Michael says we're going to an international trip to Canada.

Liz Canada 2:14

Canada. Well, I am your host, Liz Canada. And joining me today is Andrew Schuyler, who is the sustainability strategist for the Granite Outdoor Alliance. Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew Schuyler 2:28

Hey, Liz. It's great to be with you.

Liz Canada 2:29

I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you reached out. You're you're one of the people who's reached out to me to say, hey, I've got an idea for a show. And here you are, which is amazing.

Andrew Schuyler 2:38

It's magic. I was listening to the Sam Evans Brown uh episode from uh Clean Energy New Hampshire, and he uh he inspired me. Yeah, for sure.

Liz Canada 2:46

He celebrity inspires so many people. Amazing. I'm so so glad that you're here. Um, I like to do a tagline at the top of the show, Andrew. I don't know if you've thought about one. I think what I'm gonna go with is Welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask, how many issues can possibly be sustainable in New Hampshire? How's that?

Andrew Schuyler 3:07

I like that. Uh I like that a lot. Yeah, I have thought about it, and now it changes perhaps a bit, but I'll I'll go with um Welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask, why are all the cool kids practicing sustainability?

Liz Canada 3:24

Ooh, the cool kids. Maybe the listener of the show is a cool kid, or maybe that person wants to be a cool kid.

Andrew Schuyler 3:31

Or they work for a cool company. Yeah.

Liz Canada 3:33

Ooh, or a cool company. That's right. So let's jump right into it. So I mentioned you're the sustainability strategist for the Granite Outdoor Alliance. Andrew, our entire state feels like the outdoors. Like we're just a giant backyard, it feels like. So what is the Granite Outdoor Alliance?

Andrew Schuyler 3:50

Aaron Powell The Granite Outdoor Alliance was formed in 2020 during the pandemic, but it's it's a membership-based organization that is a collection of businesses and nonprofits and educational or higher educational organizations that support the outdoor economy. And so when you think about the, yeah, as you said about New Hampshire, one of its gems certainly is the outdoors. And that attracts people and hopefully it retains them to come and not only visit, but perhaps to to come and and and move and live here. You know, GOA is really trying to unite the brands and people who recognize what the outdoor recreational impact can be on the economy and the environment. And then we also, because there is there's so many facets to sustainability, you know, we want to um tie those together.

Liz Canada 4:41

How did how did you get into this work? How does one get into the sustainability lifestyle? Were you like a you're an outdoorsy guy and you're like, you know what? I like this outdoor stuff. I think we should keep it. Like, how did how did you get into it?

Andrew Schuyler 4:56

Uh you know, I'd probably have to uh say my mom, I grew up in Wisconsin and uh my mom always hung our laundry outside. And I love I love jeans that are like wrinkly like that. My wife can't stand it. Um and I get it. I do. No, I think that would that informed me though. I love the outdoors, I'm a skier, I'm a hiker, I'm a biker, um, you know, just just out in it whenever I can. So that certainly has a pretty big role in it. But I would say having kids, you know, I I have a 12-year-old daughter and a 15-year-old son, and we're not doing a very good job, which is code for we're doing a pretty terrible job, yeah, of being stewards of the environment and and how we can actually make things better. You know, there's there's always been this interesting tension between, you know, the economy and the environment. And that the old thought was, well, you can't have both. You know, you're s if you're gonna protect the environment.

Liz Canada 5:55

Choose one.

Andrew Schuyler 5:57

Right. And it's just it's a false choice. Yeah. And, you know, and I mean, really, sustainability is is all about innovation. It's all about finding new ways to do things.

Liz Canada 6:07

So you said the the S-word, which, you know, getting into my simple question, what is sustainability? Sam Evans Brown came on the show and I was like, what's clean energy? So I need you to start with the basics with me. So, like, what is sustainability exactly?

Andrew Schuyler 6:25

Yeah, there's a couple of ways to think about it. Um, we can go clinical, sort of the UN definition, you know, meeting our current needs while preserving resources for future generations. And so that's you know, that's one way to think about it. Another way would be the three Ps that people talk about, and that's profit, planet, and people. And so for profit, you need to be economically viable. If your business or organization is going to exist, uh, you need to be sustainably viable. And then planet, you need to protect uh the resources for the future for future use. And then for people, you know, you want to keep people safe and consumers and employees and their well-being really should be at the at the top of that of that list. You know, you had Congressman Pappas on an earlier uh episode, and he was talking about legislation that he was working on to help veterans who have been exposed to toxic substances. You know, anything from burn pits, Agent Orange, you know, from Vietnam and other hazards. And so, you know, in that instance, you know, the congressman and and his colleagues, it sounded like actually they were being bibartisan about this. And, you know, we're working on ways to address those health and safety problems and doing the right thing by the people that you know serve our country. And then a third way to think about this perhaps, and it sort of harkens back, it was the year I was born, night in the 1900s.

Liz Canada 7:55

Throw back D.

Andrew Schuyler 7:56

This book I'm sure some listeners have heard of. It was 1972, and it was The Lorax by Dr. Seuss.

Liz Canada 8:04

Yes, we love the Lorax. Lorax.

Andrew Schuyler 8:06

Yes, there have been movies of it, and um and but the book, you know, is obviously the original. You know, this is an interesting way again to look at sustainability because the book, you know, talks about the truffle of trees being chopped down. And that really amplifies w the way our current culture continues to be, even from back in 53 years ago. And what that was, that culture or continues to be is a take, make, waste society or ethic. And so, you know, they took the truffla trees down, they made things, thneeds in this case, out of them, and then they wasted them. And then I was done, right? And so then all of a sudden they picked up and had to go because they didn't, you know, they didn't try to replant them or try to, you know, accommodate. And so what we want to do in sustainability is, you know, go from this take-make waste ethic to a borrow use return. And so if you're a say you're a cell phone manufacturer and you need copper as one of the feedstocks or elements that you need, so you borrow the copper, and hopefully you're doing it in a sustainable way where you're not having children in some country, you know, in a hazardous scenario. Um, but so you borrow that copper, you use it, you make a cell phone out of it, and then when it's done, you return it. And that is some sort of a either recycle it, uh, you you repurpose it. And that then gets into this whole idea of circularity.

Liz Canada 9:36

I feel like I was raised in this concept of like recycling. You just put it in the recycling bin, off it goes, into the magical recycling area. I grew up in New Jersey, and at the time at least, it was we had to separate out all of our recycling into the different categories of cardboard boxes, cans, bottles, so forth. But what it sounds like you're talking about is like organizations prioritizing this. What does that look like in New Hampshire? Like what are organizations, what are folks doing in New Hampshire?

Andrew Schuyler 10:05

You know, just one example, a quick one off the top of my head. Uh Tuckerman Brewing Company in Conway, they have, I believe it's once or twice a week. It's a j it's a giant wheelbarrow. And it is the spent grains, the leftover mash from their production. And so up until a few years ago, they were paying someone to come and haul away that stuff where it was presumably going to a landfill and rotting and then and then also then emitting a bunch of methane. Well, a couple of years ago, they developed a relationship with farmers up the road, not too far from where I am, a place called Nautaville Farm, where Nautoville Farm comes a couple times a week, picks up this mash, drives it back to their farm, and feeds their cows with it. And so you've got multiple wins here, right? From the brewery, they're not having to pay the cost associated with a hauler coming in, paying the disposal fee. And then the farm gets free feed stuff or free food for its front. You know, it's not a whole lot of uh protein, but it's a it's a fiber, you know, and there's there's definitely some value to it. And you get happy cows. Um, you know, eating cows. Eating leftover beer, you know. And so another example, you know, this is an interesting one because it uh it's a company called Minus 33. So Minus 33 is a merino uh wool clothing company based in Ashland. And uh in this example, we'll touch on a couple of different sort of parts of those, I guess those three Ps that we discussed planet, profit, and people. And several years ago, they they work with a lot of um search and rescue, SAR, search and rescue is what they're they're called, volunteers. And they were hearing from people sort of anecdotally that these volunteers were going out on rescues, and it could be up to some crazy place above treeline, not Washington area, and someone got themselves into trouble. A lot of times they were underprepared, and these rescuers would show up and they have their, they're always prepared, and they would have extra hats and extra this, that, and the other. And so they just, without thinking about it, put their nice, you know, $40 Patagonia hat on some person who needs to be rescued, never to be seen again. And again, you know, these these people are volunteers and they're literally giving away a, you know, this stuff isn't cheap. And so Minus 33 came up with the idea to use irregulars or returns that may have been imperfect. Yeah. Socks are great because socks not only help your feet, but they work for your hand. They can work as a you know in a triage situation. And so they're donating hats and gloves and socks to these search and rescue teams that are going out in the in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Colorado, and they're giving them to them. And so these teams are able to go up fully prepared. And then when you look at the other benefit, you know, you've got a waste reduction from minus 33. You know, they're they're not throwing away as many items that they might not have been able to sell on the market, but they're plenty good if you're stuck in a bad situation.

Liz Canada 13:09

So how do organizations like do they just think these up? They're like, oh wait, we could be doing this. Do they get help from your organization? Like that example that you gave of the brewery before, how how do that, how do they arrive at that? How does uh an organization figure out what would have been waste and how to use it in another way? Because I'm thinking of like, maybe organizations don't know what they don't know. We've just been doing it the same way over and over. So how do organizations change their practice like that?

Andrew Schuyler 13:38

Yeah, it's a great question. And and change is such a hard thing. I know you've said in past episodes that you just hate change.

Liz Canada 13:44

I want everything to be exactly the same, I want nothing to be different. Yeah. So it's scary to think about changing something.

Andrew Schuyler 13:52

Yeah, I have a master's degree in sustainability, and what they just constantly tried to drive into us was you know, you are a change agent. You need to be a change, you know, because it's hard. And change comes in different forms, right? You can have incremental change, sort of small steps, sort of the low-hanging fruit, or you can have more transformational change, which you know will have much more of an impact. But more back to your question, you know, so Granted Outdoor does a lot of work bringing this large community of people who are impacted by the outdoor economy together. And so it could be a networking event that we put together where you get two people together who didn't know that, oh, wait, you know, wow, I could use your waste product for a feedstock, for example. You know, and we and we certainly like to facilitate um that type of conversation and collaboration.

Liz Canada 14:44

Sustainability mixer.

Andrew Schuyler 14:46

Could be that. Yeah. We haven't actually gone down that road, but now I'm glad you thought of that. But again, that that really provides an opportunity for businesses and and nonprofits. You know, we have a lot of organizations that do work with nonprofits, you know, that that sort of recognize, you know, having a relationship with a local nonprofit is advantageous, not only for them, but you know, more importantly for the community. And so, um, I mean, in your neck of the woods, I'm working on something right now for granted outdoor on uh travel and nature uh in Exeter. Yeah. And it's a, you know, a retail clothing and equipment shop. And they're doing a just a great uh amount of work on working with the local community on helping people or sponsoring hikes and educating people about safety. And so while that may not fall a little bit out of the quote unquote environmental side of sustainability, it's still helping our communities. And that is very sustainable, you know, because we want these communities to be thriving. We want the downtowns to be healthy. Another word that I was um ingrained or was ingrained in me in uh my master's program was collaboration. Um and and also very hard.

Liz Canada 16:04

Change is hard and collaborating is very hard.

Andrew Schuyler 16:07

It is, and and identifying a broad amount of stakeholders and then and then collaborating with them. And so the the short-term mindset, you know, you have you have you know, you have earnings reports, you have quarterly uh requirements, you know, from the SEC and otherwise and other places, that forces a company to think short term. And so they're they're la perhaps less willing to invest in something more expensive, a piece of infrastructure that could ultimately save them money, ultimately reduce their risk exposure. It could ultimately provide them with more of a market base because people might actually want to support that type of an organization. But because they're thinking in that short term, yeah, maybe we'll get to it next month or next quarter. You know, in that area of collaboration, you have a really a great deal of uh open source opportunities. Patagonia back several decades ago was the first company to look at organic cotton, but they realized that they alone couldn't create the economies of scale for organic cotton to become mainstream and to be used in a in a much more widespread manner. And so what they did is they they shared with some of their competitors how they were gonna go about it. They essentially did a lot of the homework for them and said, hey, give it a try. They were willing to potentially sacrifice sales because they knew if another company was going to jump on and say, oh, we've got the little tag that says we're organic cotton, but they were willing to do it because they saw a better or a larger benefit. And they also knew that they were gonna, they already sort of had some cachet as their own organ or their own company. So there are, you know, again, there are a lot of ways to sort of think a little bit more creatively. If you really want to be making more of an impact, you alone can't do much necessarily, but together with other organizations, you can. I I would really encourage organizations to sort of think about that. And we we like to help people do that or companies do that because there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. And it can be expensive.

Liz Canada 18:23

And it can be expensive. I feel like that's sometimes the theme of this show is that all of these issues, trying to solve them can at times cost some money, right? Like it it does cost money. So what have you seen from the state of New Hampshire overall? So you have like these individuals or these individual organizations. What initiatives have you seen from the state to move in the direction of sustainability practices?

Andrew Schuyler 18:51

Yeah, that's a really good question. And the short answer is not enough. Um, there has been some moves.

Liz Canada 18:57

I'm surprised.

Andrew Schuyler 19:00

But I will give you an example. Back in June, Granite Outdoor Alliance uh put together a New Hampshire outdoor industry day in Manchester. And the governor came and the um economic development team from the governor's office came. Yep, and uh the governor made a proclamation that it was, you know, outdoor industry day. And and so the state has done some things. And and just getting a little bit more nuanced on it, back in 2019, the state was, I think it was the 16th state out of the 50 um to establish what is called the Office of Outdoor Recreation. And it's a it's staffed by one person. So shout out to Janelle Lawton, who who had Janelle. She's great. You should, I would recommend you have her on your show. Um, she's really she's she's terrific. And so what what she what she and her team, and and um, and it's a small office, like I say, but have been incredibly. Effective at working on issues that affect this sort of larger outdoor economy. And those issues, you know, everything from housing, which is clearly an issue that we the state really needs to get better at. And that's true in most states, really. But also finding ways for people to be more responsible. So Janelle's office has a workforce, workforce toolkit. It's online, open source again, and it's something that companies can look at and that will help them, you know, use from the beginning of the show here. You know, when you said, you know, we're surrounded by this lovely nature, and it's so true. But use that. How how can you tap into that to attract talent? And they also, the the the Office of Outdoor Recreation just came out, I think last month, with a a new tool called Rec Ready. And that is for cities or towns across the state. It's a bunch of templates and a bunch of different ways for a resident, you know, a community member. It could be if you're on a select board, uh if you're a city counselor. And what it does is it helps you navigate and it's again a template for anything from if you wanted to extend a trail system, if you wanted to, you know, utilize, uh, I go to Davis Park in Conway uh often. And, you know, and and I use that example because if you wanted to sort of showcase that, you know, clean that up, become, you know, it it helps you get over some of the bureaucracy and the hoops and hurdles that a lot of times can be enough for someone who might be casually interested in doing something. And then they just they sort of get into it and it's it's just there's a bunch of no's and a bunch of roadblocks that come up. And so they just they stop. And so what this rec ready tool will do is help, again, communities further develop and identify resources that are right there, right in front of them sometimes, hiding in plain sight. But if you have these assets, and I don't want I don't want to use the word develop them per se, you know, you don't have to put a hot dog stand there, but you know, you might find ways to make it a more viable uh and attractive place for people to come use. And then if you put, you know, I'm a big believer in that if you have more eyes on something, it's probably gonna be safer, as opposed to places that we don't look at, and then that's where sort of some bad things can happen. The rub I've heard on New Hampshire is that it's sort of the donut hole, right? You know, if you look at say electric vehicle um policies, that there are really a number of states around us that are are aggressive on this. And and New Hampshire really hasn't been. And you know, our friends at Ski New Hampshire, they're they're really pushing this hard because you know they recognize that people are coming from Canada. Well, they used to come from Canada. Um, but but that's another issue. Um but they're coming. Right. If you're coming from New York or or Massachusetts and you have an EV and you show up at a ski area, you're gonna want to, you're gonna have to charge. Right. And so making that more uh accessible is critical to attracting more people into your state. And and again, we don't need to spend a whole you know economics lesson here. But when you get people here, that's a good thing, right? Because then they're going to the coffee shop, they're going to the restaurant, they're going to a hotel or a BB. And then the state is obviously recognizing value on all of those things because they're taxing them. But yeah, I mean, this other states are doing more. But I do think that, you know, Governor Ayott recognizes this. Um, she was at a ski New Hampshire event last week with Congresswoman Goodlander, and you know, they both were saying, look, we are sympathetical here. Um, we want to work together, we will work together on helping this critical part of our economy. I mean, that that economy, and I failed to mention before, but the outdoor economy in New Hampshire is right around $4 billion a year. You know, $4 billion with a B that's a lot of people.

Liz Canada 24:03

That's so much money. That is so much money.

Andrew Schuyler 24:05

And it's, you know, 32,000 jobs. So, you know, it's real. And so for our leaders to sort of say, okay, we get it, because that gets attention, trying to sort of work again, back to that collaboration word, to work together, there really shouldn't be sort of little fiefdoms here because we have such great assets and people want to come here.

Liz Canada 24:27

You mentioned Governor Ayott and Congresswoman Goodlander being in the same place at the same time. And I think some people assume that a lot of the issues that I cover on this podcast or in general are very partisan. But based on those two individuals, just that you just said, it makes me think that there are some bipartisan uh supports. What have you seen though? Do you think that this has become a partisan issue? Do you feel that you have strong support on both sides? Has it changed over time in New Hampshire? What have you what have you noticed?

Andrew Schuyler 25:02

Yeah, it's unfortunate that it's become sort of a hot button. And um the current occupant in the White House the environment.

Liz Canada 25:09

Do we need it?

Andrew Schuyler 25:10

I don't know. Well, I mean, but it's it's a bit ironic. President Nixon established the EPA. George Herbert Walker Bush was a very strong environmentalist. Yeah. Um, you know, we had to be a good one.

Liz Canada 25:22

Shout out to Richard Nixon and George H.W. Bush.

Andrew Schuyler 25:26

Here we are. Not often I find myself quoting and looking to that leadership, but but it was there. And it was not a controversial issue. And, you know, what when you're in your conversation with Sam Evans Brown, I thought this was very interesting because you know he was he made the point that the fossil fuel industry is really nervous about the renewable energy industry, and they should be, because the the pace at which renewable technologies are increasing is astronomical. I mean, fun fast fact. In 2015, the cost of an electric vehicle battery, just the battery, was $40,000. That was 10 years ago. Today, that cost is $4,000. I mean, you've got solar costs. Right. It's in the same time frame. In the last decade, solar costs have dropped 90%. Wind has dropped 50%. And so if you're part of a legacy dinosaur industry that is, you know, coal, natural gas, oil, and there's always going to be a place for those. So those um uh guys, and they're mostly guys, should rest easy. Um, they may not be used as much in terms of transportation, for example, but there will be a market for petroleum specifically. But the reality is there is such an astronomical growth in the innovation for renewables policy is absolutely critical. And when you have, frankly, a president who lies and says that wind turbines cause cancer, you know, they kill birds. They do kill some birds, there's no doubt about it. Do you do you want to know the number one killer of birds, hands down?

Liz Canada 27:05

I do because I hate birds, but that's a personal issue. But I've heard this about you. Tell me, tell me what's the number one killer of birds.

Andrew Schuyler 27:13

Cats.

Liz Canada 27:13

Outdoor cats. We should ban them too. I'm allergic.

Andrew Schuyler 27:16

Yeah, well, there you go. And and and buildings, you know, but but again, when when you set up a policy that, I mean, you know, the the president very recently, now a court struck it down, but we had wind massive infrastructure, billion-dollar projects of wind offshore wind, where the c the president just shut it down. And it was largely laughed out of court because it it they it wasn't even a compelling legal argument, but just because certain people in the establishment don't like a particular technology, and I think I'll quote Sam here. It used to be sort of the way to get around it was, you know, I'm an all of the above energy kind of person. Well, what it's kind of come back to is drill baby drill. And I'm an all of the above as long as it's not renewable. And the the the one of the great ironies was during the the Inflation Reduction Act, you had many, many more hundreds of millions of dollars of projects for renewable projects or going to red districts. And so you'd have people like Marjorie Taylor Green. She voted against the bill, but then she would show up at the ribbon cutting in her district for a new solar facility or a geothermal facility. And you kind of can't have it both ways. Uh, it was over 20 conservative Republicans wrote to Speaker Johnson during this process over the course of this calendar year saying, please protect our projects in our districts. Because, yeah, we get it that, you know, it's not popular with the president, you know, solar projects or wind projects, but they're jobs for our constituents. Yeah. And we want those jobs. So help us, you know, help them. We have numerous examples of very conservative organizations, companies, that are diving headfirst into sustainability because they recognize the value, the financial value that comes from it. I mean, I'll just I'll give you a couple quick examples, and these are come from you know blue chip consulting firms, not exactly, you know, bastions of liberal philosophy, but you know, Bain and Company and Morgan Stanley and Deloitte and KPNG, and they these organizations have come out with numerous, um, which will I can give you and put in the chat or links to it. But you know, Morgan Stanley, for example, and this is all this year. So this isn't, you know, 10 years ago. Morgan Stanley, you know, had a uh a survey of of leading companies, and 88% said that they adopt sustainability actions because it creates value. Period. That's why they do it. It creates value. Bain saw that 90% of companies believe that over the next three years, sustainability actions are going to positively impact their company. And then Deloitte saw 83% of businesses planning to increase their investments in sustainability-related strategies, again, because of the financial benefit. And so, you know, we there's a bunch of different reasons companies will do this. Some, for sure, will do it for the sort of the altruism and they they want to do the right thing, and that's great. That's terrific. But others, you know, really are recognizing that when you go down this road and you embed sustainability, you know, it attracts talent and you retain talent, you expand your market share, you drive innovation, you can help your reputation for sure. Uh, and then you also redisk your reduce your risk exposure. You know, if you're dumping a bunch of chemicals in a former life, I I worked in the state senate in Massachusetts, and General Electric dumped a bunch of PCBs into the Housatonic River out in the Berkshire's. And well, at the time in the 50s, that was to them, it seemed like a good idea. You know, it was pretty cheap. Well, then it caught up with them, right? And they had to sign a billions of dollar consent decree to clean it all up. So that short-sighted thinking maybe wasn't such a good idea.

Liz Canada 31:11

These companies that say that they're pursuing sustainability or they're trying those things for value, it's pretty open-ended, probably, right? Like what types of initiatives they're taking. I think I know what it is. But what is greenwashing?

Andrew Schuyler 31:26

Greenwashing is when a company, typically, will overstate its environmental credentials or attributes. So it'll say it'll sometimes those are flat out lies. There are laws against it. It it is a essentially trying to get credit for not doing it. You can also do greenwashing, sort of, it's a little bit hokey where you you say all natural. Oh you you put literally using the a green label, but you're not doing anything differently. You're just trying to sell the environmental benefit that you're hoping your customer will say, oh, if I'm picking these two different kinds of eggs, but these these are the same price, but they seem nicer, I'll buy them. And so it's effectively truth in advertising and labeling, but there's and it's been an interesting phenomenon in the last year or so where there's a new term called green hushing, where companies they're pretending they're not doing it. Exactly. And they're they're afraid of the political fallout.

Liz Canada 32:35

Oh no. Oh no. Oh my God. How is this our society? I'm stepping on your answer. I'm sorry, but this is horrifying.

Andrew Schuyler 32:44

Yeah, they they don't they sort of see, you know, I was talking earlier about the benefits of sustainability, and one of them is reputation. Some companies will say, look, we don't want to put our toe into that pool because we just don't want to ruffle anybody's feathers. And we're we're just gonna sort of play it straight and narrow, and we aren't gonna say that we're using dirty water in our processes, but we're not gonna say that we're helping to make water clean because we, you know, support an organization. It's yeah, no, it's a it's a it's a new one. It's definitely a a 2025.

Liz Canada 33:18

That's so wild. Green hushing. Oh my goodness. I can't wrap my head around it. Is there a threshold that you have to meet to like truly be like a sustainable organization or someone who's like doing the right thing? What's my benchmark, Andrew? What do I need to do so that you can say, Liz, you are being sustainable? Like, what are the things that I, as an individual, really should be doing in my day-to-day life? You can judge me. I'm ready.

Andrew Schuyler 33:44

A couple of things. I uh I'm a big proponent of um well, A of voting. So that's important.

Liz Canada 33:51

I'm a fan too. I think we should be allowed to do it.

Andrew Schuyler 33:53

I think it's I think it's important in a democracy that we should be voting. But I also but to sort of take that a step further, the dollar is a vote. And if people start to think of that a little bit more, you're sub you're supporting the companies and the products that you buy by the the the dollars that you spend. No company is is perfect. But you can do things that will make your company better. Uh I mean, I look at uh Burgeon outdoor, they're up in Lincoln, and then they have a facility in uh Gorham. And they're using Deadstock, which is basically remnants, and they make products out of you know things that nobody else seems to want. They buy them, they're in they're they're not going to be replicated, right? So you're you know, you Patagonia is great or North Face is great, but you're not going to see them again because it's dead stock. And so they're they're supporting larger organizations, you know, the responsible wool standard, the global organic uh textile standard. So again, you know, I would say, you know, voting is is critical. I'd say be curious. Ask if you're a customer, find out what the company does to be more sustainable. And again, that could be anything from how do they treat their workers, um, how do they interact in their community. And then similarly, as an employee, you know, ask your employer, hey, if you see something, and and you know, most employers are wanting to create efficiencies. They want to drive down the cost. And if you see something that is, hey, no one are no one else has noticed this, but if we do this to that widget or something and we, you know, tune it up just a bit, it could save us X amount of money. It also you'd have the environmental attributes that you would save. And then I would also say, you know, as a parent, which you know, you are and I am, I do think that the the personal choices that we make, particularly when your kids are a little bit older, um, as ours both are, uh and are really starting to think about money, we can model that behavior. And I think that that is something that is just ingrained, can be ingrained in people. And, you know, hopefully that can be a a way for people to change. And then finally, I would say, you know, get involved. Uh, you know, I mean, I don't want to be too self-serving, but join Granite Outdoor Alliance, join Clean Energy New Hampshire, join AMC, join LCV, and and but get involved. You know, yeah, the check is great, write a $35 check or whatever it is. But the all these groups have meaningful opportunities to engage. Some are on the policy side, some are, you know, with food issues, but get out in your community and and be active because it's just so important. It's and it's also just healthy for the human psyche.

Liz Canada 36:31

This is the this is the topic that I'm like, wow, I'm really bad at this in real life, which is true. No, don't sell yourself. No, but it but it's true. No, it it is true. And it's, you know, I talked about it with Sam too, of like a little bit of fear of getting it wrong or not knowing where to start. And I like this concept of like organizations working together on solving some of these and like figuring out how to be more efficient because we're all in our little silos. Like I only know this much information. And so if I'm around like-minded people and organizations that are also trying to solve this larger issue, maybe we can figure it out together. I mean, does everybody in this alliance get along, Andrew? Let me ask you that. Are you all friends?

Andrew Schuyler 37:14

Mostly, yes. I no, I do.

Liz Canada 37:16

And it's interesting because is it because you all go hiking and like it's like like it's a good activity? And so you're like, oh, this is nice. I like it up here.

Andrew Schuyler 37:25

Right. Yeah. But I would say that the outdoor economy, there's an organization called Protect Our Winters that I do some work with. They call it the outdoor state. And the outdoor state is massive and it really hits all political stripes. You've got hunters, you've got people who like to go hunt birds, and you have birders, people who like to go look and listen to birds, and you have all kinds of people who are, you know, your weekend warriors, to your, you know, if you're a walker, yeah, literally, if you that's what you do, is you walk, you're part of the outdoor state. I mean, the numbers show that it's a half of the uh American population participates in some way or another in the out an outdoor recreation. And those people need a lot of things. And so the way we look at it is wow, that's impressive. Let's go try to cater to those needs, but let's do it responsibly. And that money, again, can help governments too. I mean, a very recent study just came out that said, now this is on national parkland and it's across the US. But we, you know, last I checked that White Mountain National Forest is or federal land, $351 million a day are spent in the US from people who are accessing federal land.

Liz Canada 38:40

Wow.

Andrew Schuyler 38:40

And so you so you think about that's, you know, again, that's everything from someone going to a coffee shop to renting a car to going to a brewery. But most local governments and states are recognizing some tax benefit from that as well. And so, you know, let's let's sort of appreciate this, we would argue, get a handle on it, and then make it more sustainable. Because by its very nature, if we're not smart about it, well, people aren't going to want to go, you know, to the Housatonic River if it's full of PCBs.

Liz Canada 39:06

Yeah, no. They sure am not. Not fun. This is great. Thank you for all of your knowledge and information and controversial stance, but I would like there to be a planet for my kids to grow up and participate on, as well as their children, should they choose to have those stuff.

Andrew Schuyler 39:24

Right. Yeah.

Liz Canada 39:25

My personal opinion. Let's have a planet. Our older kiddo, when he was in sixth grade, now. And we had been talking about like middle school, there's all these hormones, and everyone could go from zero to a million in like a second, and suddenly you're yelling and you don't even know why. It's like, why did they put us all in one building together? And I said, to protect the rest of us. That's why they put you there. To help all of us.