Liz Canada (00:00)

We just love to see some of these lawmakers have to stand up in front of a group of fourteen year olds and say the things they think teachers should say. Like go ahead, just teach a lesson. Go in there for forty three minutes and I want you to stand and just do it. Like show me that you know what it's like to educate fourteen year olds. Because I think one mention of six seven would drive them right out of the building.

You're listening to New Hampshire Has Issues, and I'm your host from the future, Liz Canada. So Lewis and I cover a lot in this episode. We're going to talk about students with disabilities, the phrase special education, IEPs, and IDEA and EFAs. There are so many acronyms in this episode. And we're going to talk a little bit about open enrollment. When we recorded this episode, the bill about open enrollment, which made a lot of headlines, you might have heard of it. It was stopped.

But knowing how New Hampshire State House works sometimes, I asked him if we could talk about it anyway, just in case it resurfaced. And spoiler alert, it did late last week in a committee of conference. for more information about committees of conference in general, make sure to subscribe to the new Substack for New Hampshire has Issues, NH has issues dot substack dot com. Okay, so open enrollment might sound really nice. I'm gonna put that on the table.

Families get to choose any public school in the state they want to go to. But when we think about how schools are funded in New Hampshire, which is heavily reliant on property taxes, and as you'll hear Lewis talk about how special education is funded, we start to just see a tip of the iceberg of issues with open enrollment. So there's a lot to cover here, and this coming Thursday, the legislature is taking their last votes of the biennium. And

Part of those votes is going to be about open enrollment. I've added many links into the episode notes for you. Because as much as I would love to go into every single policy detail of open enrollment, of the different amendments, the different bills, there are people who are doing a lot better of a job at that. Make sure to check out those links to learn more about what is happening this coming Thursday. This podcast is generously sponsored by Seaco Soils.

Check out Seacoast Soils for the things that you need for your lawn and garden because we are here in June, and what a delight that good weather is finally approaching. Thank you so much for listening. Welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask who actually has choice with school choice. I am your host, Liz Canada, and my guest today is Dr. Lewis Esposito, the executive director.

Of ABLE New Hampshire. Hi Lewis. Thank you so much for being here.

Louis Esposito (03:03)

No, it's it's a pleasure. I'm really excited for this. Thanks for inviting me and having this conversation.

Liz Canada (03:08)

I am so glad that you're here. You have been recommended to me by multiple people actually to come on the podcast. you've gotten some wrecks. Yeah. I've I've been hearing about you for a while. Wow. Cred out there. So Lewis, did you come to the podcast ready with a tagline?

Louis Esposito (03:19)

My street cred.

That's good.

Ooh, I did.  I forgot it though. But let me I I I had it. I was like all clever about it last night. All right, my tagline.  welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues,  the podcast that dares to ask when schools can choose who doesn't get chosen.

Liz Canada (03:34)

Sometimes I don't come prepared at all.

That's really good. That is very clever. I am really excited about this conversation because I have been so curious about how things are working or not working, question mark in New Hampshire, or what ideas lawmakers have in New Hampshire. And so you are the person to talk to. Wow. So thank you for

Louis Esposito (04:07)

Well, thank you.  I'm thank you to everyone that said I was the person to talk to, I guess.

Liz Canada (04:12)

Shout out to all of those folks who are I I imagine some are listeners, I would I would guess. So maybe we could start with what is Able New Hampshire? You're the executive director, but what is that organization? What do you do?

Louis Esposito (04:24)

ABLE New Hampshire, we ABLE stands for Advocates Building Lasting Equality in New Hampshire. And we are a group of disability advocates that  that try to make systematic barriers go away for full inclusion for students and adults with for people with disabilities. So what does that mean? We look at the systematic barriers that  might be interrupting somebody from accessing their community and

preventing further further inclusion. So we'll talk about education, but we also  focus a lot on  transportation, a huge barrier for people with disabilities. How to, you know, get to and from, not just to your medical appointments, which is what's usually covered under waivers, but how do you get to the store? How do you get to go hang out with your friends? How do you go, you know, to the, you know, Canobie Lake Park on a weekend, you know, what what we all kind of take for granted, you know, and New Hampshire does not have a robust

public transportation system.  So we're exploring that. We also look at a lot of DEI work. You know, disability is oftentimes forgotten about in that conversation, but, you know, how could we have diversity, equity, and inclusion without disability? So we've been working on that, making sure that we are part of that conversation.  Oral health care is another thing that we do a lot of.  Medicaid was not covering oral health care,  more like the

Liz Canada (05:24)

We sure do not.

Louis Esposito (05:50)

basic, I wanna say basic, but like hygiene and dental checks,  up until the New Hampshire Smiles program, which in the past my predecessor helped push through. And nowe're trying to get more dentists to accept Medicaid, which is another huge barrier.  but mental health, civic engagement, voting rights is another big thing. You know, we're talking about a lot of absentee voting and a lot of voting restrictions that is huge for our community.  you know, if you have chronic health condition, how do you get to the polls? And now so many new barriers that are in place. And

One of the things we do a lot of is, you know, with all these changes and they're so complicated, right? Like how how do you keep track of them all? So we try to put things in like a plain language and just easy to understand information because it's it's a complicated mess, right? You know, and and I think it's purposely complicated. So we try to put things in different perspective and really just promote people with disability having a voice in their communities,  making sure that we're at the table for all the

you know, all the conversations, not just the ones that we're in, you know, invited to. We wanna kinda knock down the door and barge in.

Liz Canada (06:53)

Yeah. The complicated mess, that's the whole premise of this podcast, is that New Hampshire is a complicated mess and we're creating more and more. Feels like. And there are folks who are trying to solve them, like yourself. And I think that's really important to remember is that there are great folks out there doing the work, trying to make things a little bit better in this complicated mess that we live in. So, Lewis, you work to make education more inclusive.

To support students and families, I imagine, the whole gamut of individuals who are, you know, encountering schools. Can you talk just a little bit about the type of work that you do when it comes to education? Ooh, me too. Okay. I taught high school English.

Louis Esposito (07:33)

So I'm a former teacher. Or what what'd you teach?

awesome. I was a  special or call it supportive education  teacher. I started off as a paraprofessional. I jumped into

Liz Canada (07:49)

Paraprofessionals. They are the ones who make the school function, everyone.

Louis Esposito (07:54)

So

much. So much. And they're so underappreciated and underfunded. And really like, you know, a special education teacher. Paraprofessionals do so much of the work and it goes unnoticed. Absolutely.  and such a key member of the team. But I supported kids in both an intellectual and developmental disability setting.  I supported kids that had  communication support needs and high tech communication systems and  kind of more of like behavioral students that, you know, needed that extra support and a little

extra love and attention and you know, I loved it. And then I also worked for an emotional disability program. kids with anxiety, stress, depression, anger.  it's called emotional disturbance. I hate that term, but that's what the label is. And, you know, that was also I opening us of the whole other almost like a whole different spectrum of special education. But we do a lot of work in education in at Able and really we're trying to find student voices, but we're also finding voices of parents that are

navigating this overly complex system that is not necessarily designed or built with dis with disability in mind. Like, you know, how many schools are built, you know, before IDEA, which we'll get into w before that was created, you know, before ADA, 1990. You know, most of the schools in the state were built b before this. So they were not built for disability in mind. And there there are a lot of kids with disabilities and it's a big umbrella. And, you know, not every kid gets an IEP, but you know, there are a lot of students that just need extra support.

So we focus a lot on, you know, some of the policies that are going through the state house that might affect special education. You know, a lot of them we have to keep track of are just both special education specific and general education specific. Right. Because, you know, every student is general education student first, regardless if they're in  have an IEP. So we're kind of all over the place to be work with a lot of different groups and coalitions to kind of focus on that.

We, you know, push back on some of the policies like there was one this year on increasing restraint and seclusion in schools as a form of punishment. Like, wow, that's something we're gonna have to actually worry about this year. consolidating services  within a region for special education, which you know, we took as, my God, we're gonna make many schools dedicated for special, you know, education and have many institutions. So

You know, we're we're we're we're staying focused and, you know, we have to push back on some of the other bills that we might feel are dangerous. you know, we had the open enrollment debacle going on and you know, we were a big voice in that. W when they introduced that bill, it it really wasn't intended to be a special education conversation, but it just took off and, you know, we were able to really primarily take up almost the whole second day of that hearing of just the voices of parents and people with disabilities talking about

What this would do to special education.

Liz Canada (10:42)

So earlier I heard you sort of stop yourself. You had started saying that you were you had been a special education teacher and then you stopped and you said I was a supportive educator of students. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that 'cause I think that is a topic that a lot of people don't hear about when we're talking about students with disabilities in schools. I hate

Louis Esposito (11:03)

word special with us in that context. It really kind of others a lot of students. And I know it it's a term that's used a lot by  you know, a lot of different areas in the disability world. And there's a lot of mixed views of it. You know, a special Olympics is a huge part of a lot of people's lives.  and New Hampshire history really. But, you know, the way I like to to view it, you know, what makes someone's needs more special than others, right? You know, I have needs. My students have needs. Students that might not have a disability have needs. Why is one group

categorized aspecial and then another. I mean, like think about it for a second. Like special usually means like extra or on top of or just extraordinary, right? You know, and and and we're seeing costs for special education rise all over the place. So when you hear those words, it's like, are are these actual services and supports that we actually need? Or you know, why do we need to do this? But when we start saying the word supportive, you know, it kind of has a different meaning. Like, you know, I think all students could benefit from supportive education in some way.

And I think that's where it gets lost in the conversation. Like some someone's needs, they might need it for a a year or two. Someone might need extra support just for the day or a couple of days, you know. But you know, we categorize this one group by using that term that it kind of, you know, others. And you you hear it too. Like when I was a teacher, I'm sure you heard it too, like, like the the the SPED students. I'm a SPED student, this is my my belief. And you know, I did a lot of  research on essentially just identity creation and how using those

Terms really impact someone's understanding of disability. It really kind of focuses more on the fact that there's a a deficit and there's something wrong that needs to be improved. Like even the whole system as a whole, right? Like it's really shaped almost like you're diagnosing somebody and trying to cure them of a disability, right? Like you have a meeting, and you've probably been to, you know, special education meetings before. You know, you you have the whole team that sits around and maybe the students there, maybe they're not, and we're gonna go over all your goals and we're gonna

re-diagnose you every three years and we're gonna have a treatment plan for you to get the services that you need. And it just feels kind of icky and gross. And I would love to see some movements to change it. Right nowe're really in defense mode, but I think long term I'd love to, you know, kind of reshape how, you know, we not just view supportive education, but howe, you know, utilize it too. So I guess I I I I do push back on that word. I do like calling it supportive and I hope people, you know, do catch on to that.

Liz Canada (13:23)

And I think for the listener, you know, this is not a feel panicked if you say it because you're trying to move. It's just  it's an education and awareness. We're always trying to learn a little bit more and become better aware. And so we might say special education in this episode because that is the term that is used so often. but to keep that awareness in general here and beyond this little episode.

Louis Esposito (13:48)

Yeah, and just challenge you know, a bit's good to challenge yourself with these things and challenge others too and you know, and then you start having a conversation about the whys behind it, which is so important too.

Liz Canada (13:56)

So you mentioned IEP meetings and myself having been a former educator, I am aware of what those are. But maybe you could talk a little bit more because I imagine that there are some listeners who have had the experience of themselves being in an IEP meeting or for a child or a family member. But let's just start simple. What is an IEP? What does it actually mean? And who does it actually cover? What does it actually do?

Louis Esposito (14:25)

An IEP is an individualized education program. An IEP supports a student in their academic progress that has a disability. And there are I think fourteen to fifteen, I'm sorry about that, but categories that a student in New Hampshire could be categorized with an IEP. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what they are because you know, there's also like that whole 504 conversation, right? Yeah. Like a lot of students with IEPs that have a 504.

They don't what what distinguishes the between the two of them, an IEP, you require services for the support, while a 504 is just support or or accommodations essentially. So the services are gonna be, you know, your your special education teacher helping you with reading, writing, math,  you're having O T speech P T based off of the goals and the diagnostic criteria that you were  given for the diagnosis. But they're stressful and they're overwhelming.

Liz Canada (15:19)

Yeah. For everybody in the room, they're stressful. Everyone every single person. Yeah.

Louis Esposito (15:23)

Everybody.

I've been in some that were just amazing meetings and you feel good afterwards. And then others that were or battles and others that, you know, you people are crying. It's like you never I mean, you kind of know before you go in which direction it's gonna be in from the teacher lens, but I mean they're they're tough. And I don't think, you know, they're they're designed to support the student and understand the needs and have a team based conversation. But a lot of families out there don't feel like the the team is is working for them.  that they're kind of working against.

Or and it comes with this kind of combative nature where you're kind of  duking it out over what you feel is the best need for your kid and both ways. I I've been on both sides where, you know, I was helping parents like, no, like we we we want these type of supports and and they're like, No, we don't need them. And then the other way, like, well, I don't think you need them anymore. Like, well, no, we absolutely do. So it is a it's it's challenging and it's very legal ease and you know, there's a lot of compliance that comes with it. And

You know, and there's reasons for that. There's lawsuits, there's  due process, and you know, there's a lot of conversations that could stem afterwards that could be very  challenging too, and including, you know, f significant financial, you know, costs to the school district if they're not done correctly. So it they they are complicated, but in a nutshell, you know, it it provides the support and services that a student needs to achieve academically in the

the least restrictive environment. But even that we call it least restrictive. Why don't we call it the most inclusive environment? Right. Like you know, just the terminology that we use is is perplexing sometimes.

Liz Canada (16:56)

What are some tangible examples of the types of supports that might be in an IEP for a student?

Louis Esposito (17:02)

When I was supporting kids with emotional disabilities, a good ex emotional support. So a student would  be really frustrated or anxious about a test, right? And we would provide them, you know, conversations where we would to help teach them the skills so that they could overcome, not overcome, but you know, kind of work through that anxiety so that they could persevere. Other services would be you know, speech and language. You might get that for like thirty minutes.

a week where you're learning to, you know, articulate things and commu improve your communication skills so that you could, you know,  not get so frustrated when you're in the social environment at recess, you know. So you're working on skills. So it's the direct instruction that you get. that's really important.

Liz Canada (17:48)

You also mentioned IDEA. Do you want to talk a little bit about that too? And I say that because in an episode that I had with Patricia Vincent Piet, it was about the Americans with Disabilities Act. We talked about that. She's amazing. And that being she's amazing. She's so good. Pat, I know you're listening. We love you. So what is IDEA? So we talked about ADA as being sort of like these protections overall in our society and certain sp you know, housing and so forth. What is

I D E A, that acronym.

Louis Esposito (18:19)

With Disabilities Education Act. Think of it this way. You know, well, this this started in 1975. You know, what were the major political movements going on at that time period? You know, we had the civil rights movement in the 60s, right? 50s into 60s. We had the women's rights movement, you know, kind of peaking up in the 60s, 70s. And, you know,  disability rights is right there. You know, it it's it it like most things, it didn't happen in a vacuum.  and this

was the foundational law that provided support and education for students with disabilities. Before they were not y you didn't have to educate students with disabilities in in in in a public school.  sometimes they would go to a separate school or sometimes they weren't allowed in the school at all. Like imagine if you're a wheelchair user and that school wasn't built, it how would you supposed to get into the classroom? Like they didn't have to do that back then. So this was a foundational law. There's a lot to improve on, but

a foundational law that w in in the civil rights of people with disabilities. It's been around for fifty-one years now. I D E A is plain and simple. It provides everyone with an education. It's a civil rights issue.

Liz Canada (19:27)

All right, so I feel like we've hit some of the terminology around schools and students with disabilities. So here in New Hampshire, how many students are we talking about across the state?

Louis Esposito (19:39)

Probably more than people realize, about twenty percent.

Liz Canada (19:42)

Wow, yeah.

Louis Esposito (19:43)

Yeah. It's it's it's it's large, you know, and it's expensive too. You know, it it's it it's a giant portion, but the support and services really there's a huge range of needs and support needs that  students in New Hampshire have. So twenty percent, you know, you might not realize it. You could your best friend might be on  might have had an IEP when they were younger or

You know, your your neighbor's kid might have an IEP now. I think there's more kids that have IEPs, but there's that stigma behind it, right? Like disability oftenti and I'm sure Pat talked about it too. You know, there's there's still that stigma with disability. People aren't necessarily as open as they should be about it and kind of owning that like disability piece as part of your identity. But a considerable portion of the students in New Hampshire have one.

Liz Canada (20:28)

So what's the state's responsibility when it comes to educating students who have IEPs or students who have disabilities? Like what's New Hampshire the state's responsibility?

Louis Esposito (20:41)

About three thousand dollars. I mean they need

Liz Canada (20:46)

Two

thousand dollars. Boy, boy. That's a very small amount.

Louis Esposito (20:49)

Yes, there's the state's responsibility, but let's back it track it a little bit. It's the federal responsibility first. This is a federal law, you know, on the federal government promised that IDEA would be funded forty percent right off the bat. It's at thirteen, you know.

Liz Canada (21:07)

So the federal government said we are going to make sure forty percent of this is covered for states for students and what they've actually contributed is thirteen percent.

Louis Esposito (21:16)

What we're at right is thirteen, yeah. I don't have the numbers long term, but when it was first signed, that was the attention to grow into it. And we have not come close to that number. Wow. So like like everything, you know, it falls to the state next. And you know, when you look at some of those conversations we had this year about  adequacy and what education looks like, you know, mysteriously, you know, special education was not necessarily part of that dialogue. An adequate education should require adequate supports, right?

So the state will as part of the per student expenditure, whatever the formula is, but they do give school districts an additional, you know, a couple thousand dollars. I think it's two point seven or two or three thousand dollars around there to support kids with disabilities. But for the most part, about eighty something percent of it falls back to the towns. And that's where you start seeing a lot of these issues popping up now where the budgets are astronomical and you know, it's it's not sustainable where

the numbers because the needs are increasing. The the the lack of teachers, the lack of support paraprofessionals related services, they're fewer and fewer in between. And towns are struggling right now. They're hiring separate organizations to fulfill these roles because it's a legal requirement. It is not negotiable. What's in the IEP is a document that is a promise, you know,  and you have to provide it. And it's not supposed to be based off of, you know, available funds either. So, you know, it's about what the kid needs first and foremost. Go back to the civil rights conversation, right?

The state needs to pay their fair share, but I think we also need to make sure that we're criticizing our federal response too. Like they need to pay their fair share as well. They have not done so.  and it's really falling back on the towns who are struggling to come up, you know, come up for air with all the the weight of the financial burden it has.

Liz Canada (22:59)

So the federal government has shifted this down on the states. The state of New Hampshire provides public school districts about three thousand dollars per student who has an IEP, is that correct?

Louis Esposito (23:16)

It's about five thousand dollars for every student regardless and an additional around three thousand dollars for a student with an IEP.

Liz Canada (23:24)

Right. Flashback to Zach Sheehan's episode about why school funding is not fair yet. You know, there's the adequacy aid, there's the base aid. But then special education has an additional three thousand dollars per year for the student. And even just based on what we've talked about so far, we can already say three thousand dollars is not cutting it in terms of covering what needs to be done. And so the rest is shifted down to the towns and the cities who then have to

Cover the difference for that

Louis Esposito (23:56)

So there is a thing they used to call it  catastrophic aid. Catastrophic aid. Going back to the convocation about special education, right? Like nowe're gonna call it someone's needs catastrophic. Mm-hmm. But if the expense gets to a l a certain level, the state does provide additional funds. But that's from a giant pool of money that everybody has to pick from. So you might not get as much as you were intended to or as much as you need for certain individuals. So

The goal of that is to not have somebody come into your school district and just completely obliterate, you know, your your your school budget. But it's still happening and it's it's it's it's very dangerous.

Liz Canada (24:34)

All of that context, what is going on when it comes to quote unquote school choice? And school choice can encompass a lot. You can choose to go to a private school. You could choose to go to a religious private school. You can choose to go to a charter school, which are public schools, you can choose to go to your local public school.

And the legislature was just chit chatting about maybe choosing s any school you want to in the state, but we'll get to that in a minute. But when it comes to school choice, how does that bump up against what the needs are for students with disabilities? Or how does it all work for students?

Louis Esposito (25:16)

It doesn't. so and I guess that's why New Hampshire's a mess with this. but for sp specifically for disability, if you received an EFA voucher, that's just called what that is, it's a voucher. you essentially waive your rights. So if you want to take that to a private school, that voucher, the that private school does not have to provide the support that that kid might get at a public school. So

Liz Canada (25:43)

Blues, can you say that again? Say hit hit me with that one more time. Cause I think what I just heard you say is that if you get an EFA and you send your kiddo to a private school, the private school is not required to do the things from the IEP.

Louis Esposito (25:57)

Correct.

Yeah. And they're not required to do it at all. But let's just talk you know, like we're saying, like, but who's using the EFA, right? A student that might have a learning disability or, you know, something that might not be as  has the significant functional needs that s other students have. But, you know, they might have a learning disability and they go to that private school. They will not get the support from that private school. If you use those funds for  a home based program

You actually get additional funds. That comes back to that number again.  and it's this this is actually interesting.  it's called a disabling condition. So you actually get additional funds f for EFA vouchers if you have a disabling condition. But that disabling condition doesn't necessarily mean you get an an IEP or you qualify for an IEP. It could be any disability or like it could be a doctor's note saying you have a a disabling condition, anxiety,

Something, you get those additional funds. So the criteria to get the additional funds is actually less than what you would need to get at the public school. So we're sending a lot of additional funds out there for kids that might not be getting those funds if they were going to the public school. But essentially when you sign up for the EFA, you waive your right to have an IEP. The school district is no longer required to provide that additional support to

Liz Canada (27:18)

And to flash back to earlier in our conversation, an IEP is a legal document. If a public school has a student who has an IEP, they are legally required to comply and follow the IEP and provide what is necessary for that student to learn based on what is in that IEP. So if a family decides to quote unquote choose to go to a private school and gets an education freedom account, one of those vouchers.

They waive their right, they lose that right for their IEP to be implemented to make sure that the new school they're choosing actually provides what their student needs.

Louis Esposito (27:59)

And that's just EFAs, right? And and you know, I I don't agree with EFAs, but I think there are a lot of families out there that are just really like, you know, especially families of kids with disabilities, they're really frustrated by the system. It's driven by paperwork and you feel like these decisions are made without you. So, you know, I have had parents connect with me where they like that program, but it it's for like the different reasons that you would think. They could use those funds for the additional supports.

that they wouldn't be getting at the school, but it wouldn't necessarily cover all the educational needs that a kid would have. You know, that that's the other end of it. You know, if the student has  needs speech and language and OT and, you know, a reading specialist, there's no way that those funds are going to cover all those expenses for a full year. So it it is not necessarily  a a system that a lot of people with disabilities I've heard use it. And that's just for low support needs. If you have high support needs

Like a kid that might need, you know, a one-to-one all day with nursing support and whatnot, there's no way the funds for an EFA would ever approach what that kid actually would benefit from.

Liz Canada (29:02)

You mentioned the frustrations that families can sometimes feel in their public schools. That has been an argument made by the folks who support EFAs. Yeah. Is that bearing out in reality? Are we seeing families leaving their public schools to go to a private school?

Louis Esposito (29:19)

Not in the significant numbers that, you know, warrant the drastic amount of money that's being flooded into the system. No. Mm. And I'll be I'd be kinda curious, you know, there's hasn't been a lot of  data coming out about the EFAs. I'd be kinda curious to see where how much is being given this ex extra disabled and conditioned part and how many kids with disabilities are leaving public education. And does it seem like there's a lot with the data that's been out there now, but I don't know how many specific with disabilities are leaving public schools and it's it's not a large portion.

By any means.

Liz Canada (29:50)

And that's been a lot of money that they've put towards the EFA's education freedom accounts over the past two years as well. And growing. Indeed. Indeed. Well, the other big topic that's come up is the open enrollment bill, but the policy. And we're recording this on May 4th, Star Wars Day, May 4th, 2026. that's right. The bill.

Louis Esposito (29:56)

And growing.

Liz Canada (30:16)

stalled out, at least this version of the bill, stalled out in the house. However, longtime listeners of the show will know. Nothing is ever over until it's actually over. So it's not gone, and the State House is still happening for another month. So before we say it's totally done, what was it? What's this open enrollment debate actually about? And how did you see your work intersecting with this issue?

Louis Esposito (30:44)

I mean, open enrollment was a disaster in so many different levels.  from a disability specific level, there's a lot of different issues that could pop up, right? The the the resident school district is responsible, right? So theoretically a student could have  transportation as part of their IEP because they can't access the regular education bus. Now all of a sudden that school district might have to transport that student 30

40 minutes according to where you know a parent would want to go.  what happens to those supports? The school resident district needs to still provide those supports, but now they're being delivered at a different school. So you have now two teachers, one the resident and one the at the new school, would need to provide those supports. who pays for the related services, the speech, OT, paraprofessionals, and if they don't have them, contracted services.

You know, so it was just so many issues. And I think it really would have just skyrocketed even more some of the costs that we're seeing with special education budgets. Where we played a role was we a lot of advocates came out and spoke up about this. The other really interesting piece that we stumbled upon in it was really the first day of the hearing, you know, it went four hours. And I don't know if Liz, if you've been in that room before, but it's hot as hell in there.

Liz Canada (32:01)

I've been in there. It's toasty.

Louis Esposito (32:02)

That hearing went on forever, but it gave me kind of a chance. And there was a person from the Reason Foundation that popped up on there. And, you know, so I did some exploring. And I'm like, wow, like they are a think tank for, you know, pro-choice schools. And  so I started exploring and in their documents, they kind of laid it out there  that most of the schools and most of the states that had open enrollment, you know, were having a hard time with supporting kids with disabilities because they were actually being excluded from.

From these programs. And some of the research that I found  Nebraska, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma, huge proportions of students with disabilities were being  excluded from open enrollment choices. And that's because of two factors. One, in their states, that's a little bit different than ours, but they had like what's called like capacity. So you would have like open enrollment slots, but they had them specifically for students with IEPs.

So they could only take X amount of students with an IEP this year. And there are some districts that would just put the z market zero in some of these other states. And then you throw in 504s. Now those could also be expensive. You know, we're talking full blown FM communication systems, potential transportation. And these are the remember from before accommodations, right? For students to access their general education. And those could be very expensive. And that's actually the responsibility of the receiving school.

Because they're not under IDEA. So now you have a school that would be on the hook for really expensive costs. So if we're treating and that was one of the arguments, right? Like, you know, schools need to be more run like a business. You know, we're gonna treat this like it's a thriving business. Schools are gonna excel at certain areas and the good ones are gonna thrive and the bad ones are gonna fall apart. Well, if you treat it like a business, which students do you think get cut out first? The ones that are most expensive, right? And you know, it

It's very clear that that's what's happening in other states.  Colorado has a civil rights action  lawsuit based off their open enrollment programs,  for kids with disabilities. And those adjusted three states that actually track data, which is the other insane part of all this. They they're the ones that actually track whether or not a student was denied open enrollment because of their disability. All the other ones, it's there. It's just not, you know, there's no data to support it. So this open enrollment it it really started causing

You know, they rewrote it a couple of times. You know, initially it was gonna be funded primarily and only through the residential school. Then it was gonna be funded similarly to like a charter school model from the state. But eventually it where it started getting really convoluted and you can see all the different terms they added for special education. And if you look at Senator Lang, when he initially introduced the bill, he said, I don't want to turn this into a giant talk about special education, but he couldn't answer a basic question about 504. And then that

conversation turned into a giant talk about special education. And they they didn't have a lot of answers. I mean, they didn't even contact the special education administrators. Now the DOE didn't have the appropriate answers either, which they were, you know, sitting alongside  laying in that first hearing. And person after person kind of started breaking down, you know, what this would actually mean for students with disabilities. And

It's really hard when somebody pushes back on that because they sound so ignorant. And I think they said like that in a lot of areas, but with disability, for some reason it just kind of sticks out more. Like, you know, what we we started hearing things like, well, what about the other kids? Or what about the other students? So then it just makes you sound horrible. Right. And so it it it got interesting. And I'm not sure if that was the the the force behind, you know, why it was, you know, voted down. There are a lot of reasons why it was voting.

Down. And there's a lot of great people out there that were producing some great advocacy work, reaching higher fair funding project,  and doing some tremendous work. And a lot of advocates all over the state in various areas were coming together for this thing. I mean, if you look at the numbers, it was like 2,700 people opposed online to 70 people supporting. So the numbers weren't there. And then you throw in the local towns, a lot of them were also voting about their open enrollment within the local area. So this law would supersede that.

Which I know upset a lot of people. So at the end of the day, about twenty representatives either decided not to vote or vote against it, which was I was surprised, but you know, very excited. It's not dead yet, like you said, and things could just kind of mysteriously pop back up. So we're keeping an eye on it. But I I'll be curious if there's any other plans that pop out. I'm sure there will be soon, but  you know, we'll be ready to kind of push back on that when it happens.

Liz Canada (36:32)

Because the open enrollment  policy, the premise was that a student and a family could choose any school in the state that they wanted to. There were some nuances, but at the end of the day, the idea of this policy is the enrollment across the state is just open. You don't have to just go to the school where you're where you live. You can go anywhere you want to any of the public schools. And as you're saying, as I'm hearing you say, there are

significant issues in terms of fairness and making sure that students with disabilities wouldn't be left out.  because if schools could decide how many, then it comes down to how much might it cost to cover the supports needed for those students to be educated.

Louis Esposito (37:19)

Students

shouldn't be viewed as dollar signs. And in this case, they they absolutely would have. And yeah, I mean, like e Exeter to Concord, Exeter to Keen. Like there's no real restrictions on it. I think primarily you it still from an equity perspective, you still have to provide your own transportation. So who does that help out? You know, if someone lives in Nashua and they want to go to Amherst, there's certain families that could afford to take the time to drive in the morning and pick up in the afternoon. Like

Liz Canada (37:21)

Yeah.

Louis Esposito (37:49)

It's just not equitable. So it was I think it was another s way to kind of further segregate and further, you know, kind of tear apart public education.

Liz Canada (37:58)

There are issues still in public schools. Like things are not perfect. I do not want to pretend as if things are perfect in  public schools across New Hampshire when it comes to supporting students with disabilities. What has been your experience working with or next to school districts in New Hampshire?

Louis Esposito (38:17)

I don't think schools are working for all students right now. I don't think the solution to the plans are destroying public education. I think we do have to get creative and have a a a better roadmap on how to improve them. And improvement of them can't be just as simple as more money. You know, it can't be, you know, we're gonna have more choice and vouchers and all this other nonsense. I I I don't feel like education is working  necessarily the way it's supposed to. And

You know, even before the free staters have come in and started with these plans, I don't think it was necessarily working. So I think, you know, us just saying, throwing our hands up we need more funds is not the solution. We need to come up with some complicated answers pretty quickly and a roadmap on how to get there. And, you know, I think that's where we're we're struggling because there's a lot of educators right now that could give their perspective on how to improve things and

a lot of professionals and scholars out there that could really give some insight, but not really listening to them as much, you know. I don't know how many people on the House Education Policy Committee were former teachers or scholars of this field, but it's not many. But I could get off my soapbox, but

Liz Canada (39:20)

No, I think you're I think you're right that there's not a lot of former teachers on that on that committee. And it feels to me, seems like our state lawmakers are trying to strangle education and like try to tighten their grip on it when it feels like the opposite needs to happen. There needs to be room and encouragement for innovation. Like let's think creatively. We don't need to encourage students to leave.

A story that always jumps out to me is teaching the yellow wallpaper. Because students really never knew what to expect from that specific story. Yeah. And I won't spoil it for you, but it's it's very good.

Louis Esposito (40:05)

to read that one.