Andrea Folsom 0:00

I know. I think you tackle a lot of things that affect granite staters in a way that we may or may not um be able to verbalize uh or recognize on a day-to-day basis. Um and so when you pause to think about it, um, you know, it can elicit a reaction or uh an emotional response.

Liz Canada 0:20

Dread, fear, panic, despair. I'll just name words. I'll just say feelings aloud. Welcome to New Hampshire Has Issues, the podcast that dares to ask, is recycling real?

Andrea Folsom 0:47

Sure is.

Liz Canada 0:48

Sure is okay. I love that little spoiler. Uh my guest today is the executive director of New Hampshire Recycles, Andrea Folsom. Andrea, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm so delighted that you are here. And I'm wondering if you have a tagline for our episode today.

Andrea Folsom 1:08

Yeah, I think um my tagline would be uh recycling is in fact working in New Hampshire. And no, we're not just throwing your stuff in the ocean.

Liz Canada 1:18

The podcast that asks, are are things just being chucked into the ocean?

Andrea Folsom 1:25

Answers no.

Liz Canada 1:26

The answer is no. Okay. So you're with New Hampshire Recycles. Yeah. What is that? What's that organization?

Andrea Folsom 1:34

Yeah. So we um we used to last year actually, we rebranded. So our old name was the Northeast Resource Recovery Association. And I bet you can't guess why we rebranded. Just kidding. So we we are New Hampshire Recycles. We are um the oldest and largest recycling um cooperative model nonprofit in the country. Uh-huh. And we are based right here in New Hampshire. I know it's very exciting.

Liz Canada 2:04

Holy smokes.

Andrea Folsom 2:06

Yeah, and and what that means is we predominantly work with municipalities, really small rural municipalities, and we help them move their recycling materials from their transfer stations to market. Um, and then we also support them in a lot of other really important ways with technical assistance and education. Um, so we work with nearly 400 municipalities in New Hampshire, Vermont, and Massachusetts. Um, 90% of towns in New Hampshire work with us. So we really, really like New Hampshire so much so we put it in our name.

Liz Canada 2:44

I'd love to start with a simple question because I've had a few episodes about like tran not about, but transfer stations have come up and about clean water and things like that. And so my simple question for you, and I've watched a few documentaries, Andrea. Classic. Oh no. When I put my seltzer can into a recycling bin, does it r does it really get recycled? Like what actually happens to this little seltzer can? What's the journey of the can?

Andrea Folsom 3:18

I love that. So um your recycling can, and and I'm assuming that you're putting it into a recycling bin and not into a trash can.

Liz Canada 3:27

I am putting it into a recycling bin. One. Absolutely.

Andrea Folsom 3:32

Okay, just just a clarifying question. Did I say trash can when I asked the question? Yeah, I I don't believe you did, but I just wanted to clarify. So your your aluminum can is going to take one of two paths, and it's gonna depend a little bit on where you live. So if you are in uh a city like Concord, you're gonna put your recycling, uh, your seltzer can into a recycling bin along with the rest of your recyclables. So your seltzer can will go in there along with your paper, your cardboard, your plastic. Everything will go into a single bin. Um, that is single stream recycling. That is separated at something called a materials recovery facility. We don't have any of those in New Hampshire. The shorthand for that is a Murph. Um, that's what we call it in the industry. Because we don't have any of those in New Hampshire, it has to go on out of state. So that is then sent to either Massachusetts or Vermont, um, where it is sent to a MERF and then it is separated mechanically. It can be a can, for instance, is going to be separated by magnets, but they also use robots, air, people. Um, Murphs are humongous, uh, and that's it's predominantly mechanical separation. So they'll separate all of the recyclable materials into their different um commodities, they'll bale them together, which just basically means put them into large blocks, and then they will sell them to a vendor who will um, you know, turn them into a recycled back into the raw material. So if you are doing single stream recycling where everything goes into one bin, that's where your can is gonna go.

Liz Canada 5:22

That's the journey of your can. It's going to Vermont or Massachusetts to continue its life cycle.

Andrea Folsom 5:28

Yep, to be separated and sold. If you live in um a smaller town in New Hampshire, and this is what most towns do. Um, so my town where I live, and this is what New Hampshire Recycles helps with. So I would take my can, sure, I might put it into my recycling bin, but then on Saturday, I will bring it to my transfer station. Um, and at my transfer station, I myself will separate that can and I will put it with the rest of the cans into one container. Um, I will then put my number one plastic with the other number one plastics, I will put my number two plastics, like my uh detergent bottles with the number two plastics, my paper will go with paper, my cardboard with cardboard, and so on. And then at the transfer station, it's really just a waypoint. Once they collect enough material, some transfer stations have something called a baler, which again just squishes things into big bales or squares, and they strap them together. And then they, again, New Hampshire Recycles, helps connect them with a vendor who will purchase their recyclable material and then ship it off. Uh, and they will hopefully, if the markets are doing well, they'll they'll earn a bit of revenue. The town itself will earn a bit of revenue. Um, but that can will then go to a metal recycler. Um, they will shred it and melt it down, stretch it, and turn it into a new can. For me to drink another seltzer. For you to drink again, but my future seltzer. These are my favorite parts. So I love aluminum recycling. I'm gonna nerd out for a half second here.

Liz Canada 7:12

Yeah.

Andrea Folsom 7:12

So here's the thing about aluminum that's amazing. First, 75% of all aluminum ever created, like in the history of aluminum, is still in use today, which I think is amazing. I mean, that is, I think that's a super cool number, um, considering how much aluminum, I mean, frankly, how many how many cans I see on the side of the road. So 75% of all aluminum we've ever created is still in use. Aluminum can be recycled over and over and over again. It does not degrade when we recycle it. So we can just keep using it, which is amazing.

Liz Canada 7:50

Wow.

Andrea Folsom 7:50

Yeah, it uses far less water and energy, like over 90% less energy to create recycled aluminum versus um processing bauxite ore, which is what aluminum is created from. Um, so so you can either process the ore, which uses a ton of water and a ton of energy, or you can use much less energy and water and use recycled aluminum. And the coolest is from the time you take that can and you put it in your recycling bin to the time you see that can back on your grocery shelf is approximately 60 days. So it's really fast. Yes. What? It's fast. Yeah. In smaller towns where it takes them longer to collect enough aluminum, that number is gonna be, you know, it's gonna be longer because it's gonna take them a little while to collect aluminum. But in in cities where they're really collecting and processing much faster, that when that recycling process is working well, it's quick. It is a quick turnaround time. So this is why I have the aluminum can behind me. Aluminum is the darling of the industry for a lot of reasons. It's pretty neat. 60 days? Yeah. Yep. It's really neat.

Liz Canada 9:09

I am flabbergasted. We see legislation filed in the state house that doesn't move forward in 60 days. Like that's bananas that that is that fast. Wow. I I want to go back over a second because yeah, if these items have to leave New Hampshire because we don't have a Murph here, why don't we?

Andrea Folsom 9:32

Yeah. So uh in order for a Murph to be um really economically viable, you have to have an economy of scale. So you have to have enough stuff coming into it in order for it to really be worth their time and money, really, it's the money aspect, um, to build one in the state. And um, the way that we have our our recycling programs currently set up with most of our small towns doing um sort, it's called source-separated recycling, which means that we separate at the source, so we separate at the transfer station. You know, we would have to switch a lot of people over to single stream recycling. And even then, I don't know as we would have the economy of scale, the volume needed to justify putting a Murph in. Um, you know, we have a lot of folks who live in southern New Hampshire. That stuff goes right over the border to New Hamps to Massachusetts, um, where we have Murphs right there. Um, and then we have other Murphs located right across the border, pretty much in Vermont on the west side. So um it makes it tricky though for the people in the middle. And um, and it makes it tricky for our north country towns who do uh single stream and with rising fuel costs and transportation costs, even before what we've seen currently, that means that single stream recycling just continues to increase in price. It is more and more expensive, but it is also very convenient for folks because towns don't have to, you don't have to pay for a building, you don't have to pay for labor, um, you don't have to pay for the logistics of trying to separate all of that material on your own. Right. So there are pros and cons.

Liz Canada 11:30

Does every town recycle?

Andrea Folsom 11:35

No.

Liz Canada 11:35

Is that a weird question?

Andrea Folsom 11:37

No, that's a great question. So, no, every town does not recycle. By state statute, every town has to provide their residents with uh some means of trash disposal, um, but they do not have to uh provide necessarily recycling. Most towns provide recycling um because in addition to the revenue aspect that I mentioned for the sale of recyclables, there's also a huge uh cost avoidance factor because anytime you throw away trash, you are paying for that trash to go into the landfill. To go somewhere or or into a waste of energy incinerator. And, you know, recycling markets are markets. They go up, they go down, but by and large, it it costs less money to recycle than it does to throw things away. So it it usually makes more sense to recycle things than it does from an economic standpoint, than it does to throw them away.

Liz Canada 12:37

Boy, oh boy. Yeah. Okay. So I guess this leads into sort of the big overarching question, the entire premise of this podcast. How big of an issue is recycling or trash or having to send things to landfills, or like how big of an issue is this in New Hampshire?

Andrea Folsom 12:57

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a huge issue, I would say. I think, I think it has always been a big issue. Uh, you know, we saw during the pandemic folks realize that our um solid waste operators were essential workers. Um I recently was quoting the the poem Um Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout would not take the garbage out by Shel Silverstein, which is about this this girl who does not take her garbage out. And it has a a quite terrible ending for for poor Sarah. But, you know, we we have to deal with with our waste. Um it's a a necessity. And um, for as much as we would like to think that we can divert all waste, there will always be something that we have to throw away. Um so there will always be some material that will need to go into a landfill. And also, we have, we're a small state, we have a high water table. There are a limited number of landfills that we have here. And so once those are full, um it will get even more expensive for us to throw away our trash. And so it it really is it it really is important for us to um take good care of of the resources that we currently have and to view landfills as resources, um, even though we don't we might not want to think of them that way. They are finite and they will be filled eventually. Um and once that happens, our trash will have to go somewhere, and likely it will have to go out of state, and that will be very expensive. So we want to try to divert as much as we can now. So we just want to do that.

Liz Canada 14:51

Yeah, and I've seen a lot of headlines and like hints of stories about landfills, and I know that that's not your like you do the recycling part of the world, right? So I can I can appreciate that. I guess maybe if you're able to answer at a very like high level, what is the sort of large looming thing when it comes to landfills?

Andrea Folsom 15:10

Yeah, I mean, I think just to like give a little context about um the landfills in New Hampshire. So New Hampshire has six landfills. Three of the landfills are limited service areas, which means that they will only take trash from a very specific area. Um, so like in Lebanon, they will only take from a very specific area surrounding Lebanon. They cannot take trash from out of state or from other areas necessarily. We also have three unlimited service area um landfills. So we have two in the North Country, and then um we have one in Rochester, which is one of the largest landfills uh in New England. You know, they are all um overseen by the Department for Environmental Services. They all have a specific capacity, and we can all uh see within our lifetime the end of those landfills lifetimes. Many of us can, at least. Right. Um and our our children certainly can. So I think that is the the concern for folks. Um but yes, as as a recycling nonprofit, we well, we stay aware of of the landfill.

Liz Canada 16:31

Because do what you have to, you should kind of know what's going on there. Yeah.

Andrea Folsom 16:34

We we generally know what is going on, um, but we tend not to wade into the waters because we understand that it's it's incredibly nuanced and complex, and that's just not our area of expertise.

Liz Canada 16:46

And so recycling, when towns are having a recycling program, there is some sort of revenue coming back into that community when they are recycling whatever that might be, because it is sold on a market. I want you to, what is this market? What does that mean? Who's buying these recycled items?

Andrea Folsom 17:11

Yeah, just like a a little bit of a clarifier. So oftentimes you are able to uh sell material at um some kind of revenue, not always. Um, like if the markets are down, then there can be a cost um to moving them. For example, um, right now, the PET market, so that's like your clear plastic water bottles, that market is doing terribly. And there are a variety of reasons. Really, um recycling is a it's a global market. Virgin plastic is very cheap. It's very inexpensive. It is less expensive to use virgin plastic than it is to use recycled plastic. Um, and perhaps surprisingly, in the United States, we have to, we don't create enough recycled plastic. So we have to import recycled plastic to use here in the US, um, which I think people find surprising. Um, I think folks think that we're like, I'm like trying to process what that means.

Liz Canada 18:17

Yeah, like we're importing recycled plastics into our country.

Andrea Folsom 18:22

Yep. Yeah. So we'll we'll import um, they come in either pellets or flakes. And so we we will import um like recycled plastic pellets um to be melted down and used um into new, made into new products because we're just not creating enough recycled plastic. The reason for that is that our recycled processing capacity has decreased. We have seen plastic recycling processors shut down. They're closing down, they're going bankrupt, they are they are finding the recycling industry just not as profitable as they thought it was going to be.

Liz Canada 19:06

Um The plastic... Well, it's like I feel like so many things are plastic. Like ever like everything feels like it's plastic, is how it sort of feels right now. Yeah. So we're making things, but then we're not recycling them, or we don't have folks who are able to recycle. Why is everything plastic, Andrea, if we're not reusing things? What's going on? What happened? That's a great question.

Andrea Folsom 19:31

So uh things are plastic.

Liz Canada 19:33

Is it a controversial question? Am I asking a controversial question?

Andrea Folsom 19:36

No. No, I mean, we're uh plastic is uh it's a common question that we get. You know, if you see the little chasing arrows on the bottom of something, um most often you'll see that on the bottom of plastic. If it has a number in it, that um it doesn't mean that it's recyclable. Um if it's on the bottom of something that's plastic, what that is telling you is the type of plastic that it is made of. That's all it's telling you. Um so it's telling you the type of resin that it is made of, and it is giving you a clue as to its recyclability. Um, but it's not a directive. So it's it's a little sneaky.

Liz Canada 20:17

Why do I have a core memory from growing up of being like, we can recycle one and two, but we can't recycle the other ones? Am I is this a dream? Am I living in a dream or a nightmare? What?

Andrea Folsom 20:28

No, yeah. So oftentimes one and twos are recyclable. I like to say if it is a bottle, tub, or jug, then yes. Um, but you will often see like sandwich, like those sandwich boxes or what your strawberries come in, they're called clamshells or thermoforms. Those will also have a number one on them. And um, if you are a single stream recycler, probably you can recycle them. If you go to source-separated recycling, you cannot recycle them there. They don't want that plastic because it has, even though it's a one, it has a different melting point. And so it's a it's like a slightly different type of one. It's so complicated. Wow. And and then people are just like, I'm out, which is which is not what I want. Right.

Liz Canada 21:27

Um at all. Okay, so listener, don't go there. We're not going there. We're just trying to unpack it a little bit.

Andrea Folsom 21:32

Well, that's when you look, you're like, it's a one or two. It's a it's a bottle tub or jug. I'll go for it. Or ask your transfer station operator.

Liz Canada 21:41

Or ask your transfer station. You talked about the aluminum can process. We talked a bit about plastic. What about I mean, the things the other things that I think about of being recycled is like glass. Like that is a good thing to recycle. That is a real recycling process. Question mark?

Andrea Folsom 21:59

Yeah. Yes, yes, no. So glass, glass is recycled. So glass in New Hampshire is interesting. Um glass is recycled in two main ways. So we help we help with glass recycling in two ways. So it can either be recycled, and and glass is similar to aluminum. It can just be like again and again. It's not gonna degrade. So some glass is recycled into um like fiberglass insulation and um pool filters. I recently learned that, which I thought was interesting. I was like, who knew? Uh I don't have a pool, so I guess I didn't know. Uh, and then like it can be recycled back into glass bottles. Um, the other thing that glass can be, and this is more, I guess we call it recycling, but it it may fall more under like reuse, is it can be ground up into something called a processed glass aggregate, um, which is a mouthful. So we call it PGA. Um, and that can be used as an underlayment for roads projects. Um, so you can put it under like roads or sidewalks. Um, yeah, and so it can be used in some instances in place of gravel because it does not expand and can contract in the same way that um other like gravel does. Um, it really just sort of stays the same. For a while that was very popular, and a lot of towns were doing that. We are now seeing more of a shift back to what we call clean glass program, where glass is being truly recycled generally into fiberglass. Um, and a lot of that happens in Canada, which is not far away.

Liz Canada 23:37

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. And the other, I mean, there's lots of things to recycle, I'm sure. One that I think trips some folks up is like what to do with batteries. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Folsom 23:50

So this is actually.

Liz Canada 23:52

Do you just keep them on your desk for for years and hope that someday you might put them somewhere because you don't know what to do? Yeah.

Andrea Folsom 24:01

That's an option. It would not be the option. The ideal option. Yeah, right. So here's the fun fact about batteries for everybody to know. There is a new law in New Hampshire, and this applies to everyone: residents, transfer stations, landfills, everybody. Nobody is allowed to throw lithium-ion batteries in the trash anymore. So that went into effect last July. And a lot of people don't know that. Oh. The reason, yes, the reason why is because uh they explode. So they explode, they catch on fire.

Liz Canada 24:36

Yeah. The reason why is they explode. Okay.

Andrea Folsom 24:39

Yeah, that's a good thing. That's the reason. Yeah. The thing about lithium-ion batteries is they have everything within them uh that fire needs. So they have fuel, uh, they have heat, um, and they have oxygen. So they've got they've got like all of it all together. So if like I've got my cell phone, my cell phone has a lithium-ion battery in here. If there's this were to get punctured, um, it would be off to the races. And there would be nothing I could do to put it out. The the thing you do with lithium-ion batteries is you wait for them to burn out. Uh, you try to isolate them and get them away. Uh, it's a huge issue. Uh garbage trucks keep catching on fire, transfer stations catch on fire. Yeah, they explode. Uh recycling centers catch on fire. So we've been going around the state this year, and we actually have a webinar as well and a whole safety toolkit on our website that's, I mean, it's designed for um transfer station operators and fire personnel, but really it's for residents as well. All about, you know, battery safety and fire prevention, because it is such a huge issue.

Liz Canada 25:52

Holy, literally smokes.

Andrea Folsom 25:54

Yeah. So if you do have batteries and you need to put them somewhere, oftentimes you can bring them to your transfer station. Many transfer stations will take them. If your transfer station does not take them, you can usually bring them to Staples or Home Depot or Batteries Plus. Those are all good, good places. And those are all in New Hampshire. If you have listeners who live in Vermont, there is a program called the Battery Network, and that's all over Vermont, and they're free. Um, and they'll take your batteries.

Liz Canada 26:27

Wow.

Andrea Folsom 26:27

Yeah, do not throw those lithium-ion batteries away. You also can't throw your car batteries away. Not that I think anyone's like chucking their car batteries. Usually you just bring your car to the mechanics. That's true. Right, exactly. Exactly. So so car batteries, you're also not allowed to throw those away. Um, you haven't been able to throw those away for quite some time. But that's another one. And you know, like the other reality with both of these types of batteries is that not only are they uh a health hazard, but they actually have really valuable materials that we would like to use again. So they have lithium, they have cobalt, they have nickel, uh, they have cadmium. We can reuse all of these things. If we can capture them and reuse them, that's always gonna be better than mining them again. So um, you can either be scared that they're gonna explode. Like that's I can use the carrot or, or the stick, rather. I can use a stick and say you might explode, or you can use a carrot and say, please help us collect really uh valuable materials through your battery recycling.

Liz Canada 27:39

Do not throw the batteries in the trash. That's the main message here. Do not do that. There are places to go and bring them. Do not throw them into the trash. Do not blow up. Uh don't burn down your house. Don't burn down your house. Don't burn down a truck. No, none of those things. Wow.

Andrea Folsom 27:56

And help, yeah, help keep our um our transfer station operators safe. You know, they are they are doing a pretty thankless job working with folks, you know, waste every day, all day. That's not, you know, it's it's not usually super fun. And and when people go to the transfer station, you may not be in the best mood, although I encourage people to be friendly with your transfer station operators. Um but, you know, I I adore operators. I get to I feel very privileged to work very closely with transfer station operators across New Hampshire. And so I want to make sure that they are staying safe every day of the week.

Liz Canada 28:36

Andrea, I'm hearing that recycling's real. That's what I'm that's that's what I'm hearing in this. It's it's real. It really is. Yeah. We actually can use things and reuse them and they can be processed into all sorts of things. Under the roads, in the car, my next seltzer can.

Andrea Folsom 28:56

Recycling um programs, it it really would make no sense to take this amount of time, logistics, and money to collect and um to collect recyclables and move them if all we were doing was disposing of them. So we we really want to make sure that things make economic and environmental sense. Yeah, recycling in New Hampshire, it's happening. It's happening. It's real, it's happening, folks. I guess I think the the one other thing that I would just acknowledge is that recycling is confusing. Um, and we we get that. Like we we understand that recycling can be really confusing. And sometimes when things are confusing, it it can be easy to opt out. And what we would say is please don't um, you know, start with the easy things. Um, you know, recycle your aluminum. Um if you are confused by plastic, skip the plastic. You know, it recycle the things that you you know you can recycle. And if you have questions, your transfer station is the best place to ask them. Um and also we are always here as a resource. So we have a lot of educational materials on our website, um, along with a Recycling 101 presentation that's been recorded that tries to answer all of these questions and more because we really want to help make recycling uh less confusing and more accessible. But we also, we get it. It's New Hampshire. We we all want to do it our own way, uh, for better or for worse. Right. So I think that's resources available. That was everything.

Liz Canada 30:47

Resources, super available. Andrea, thank you. This was incredible. Thank you so much. Murph. My goodness.

Andrea Folsom 30:58

I know. I feel like I uh I was a real fire hose of recycling. I could nerd out about recycling literally forever. It's good though. That's why this is your job.

Liz Canada 31:07

That's why you literally do this. This is your whole job. Yeah. Andrea, very enthusiastic about it.

Andrea Folsom 31:14

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Liz Canada 31:17

I will do as much as I can, and I will definitely not throw a battery out into a trash can. I can assure you that will not happen.

Andrea Folsom 31:24

Wonderful. I love that. Thank you for keeping everyone safe. I appreciate that.

Liz Canada 31:33

Thank you for listening to New Hampshire Has Issues. If you would like to support the show, please visit patreon.com slash nh has issues. This podcast is created by, hosted by, edited by, produced by me, Liz Canada. Thank you for listening.